http://www.futurerocklegends.com/Revisited_Projected_Rankings.php

If you're looking for Gassman's latest project which ranks the Revisited and Projected inductees, head over to the page above. Thanks.

Posted by Future Rock Legends on Friday, 10.14.11 @ 00:02am

Hi all. I hope I'm not stepping on any toes around here. I think this was a fantastic, fun idea, but I missed it. So I am repeating the experience on the internet movie database message boards. We have already completed the 1986 voting, but everything else is still ahead of us. If you missed the voting here, or just want to experience it all over again, come over and vote. I'm trying to get as many voters as possible for the best results. Link here:

http://www.imdb.com/board/bd0000051/flat/189143281?p=2&d=189683995#189683995

Posted by jtrichey on Friday, 10.14.11 @ 12:31pm

Can we have a separate box at the bottom of this page that lists those that are enshrined in Cleveland but weren't inducted in Rock Hall Revisited/Projected? It would be great for visitors of this site since they wouldn't have to look through a lot of names to figure it out. Plus, it also points out where exactly we differ from the real Hall.


Performers:

The Moonglows (inducted in 2000)
The Dells (inducted in 2004)
Percy Sledge (inducted in 2005)


Early Influence:

Wanda Jackson (inducted in 2009)


Non-Performer:

Art Rupe (inducted in 2011)

Posted by Casper on Friday, 11.4.11 @ 18:35pm

2027 was a good class as far as getting a few good acts out of the way, The Flaming Lips being my biggest priority of the batch. One thing of (not really surprising) note is that no newcomers from the past two years were inducted. The strongest "snubs" from '25 and '26 are:

Alicia Keys
Gorillaz
Interpol
Linkin Park
Nelly
Norah Jones
Phoenix
P!nk
The Shins
The Strokes
Sufjan Stevens

and we have a few good looking eligibles coming up in our next class, the most prominent of these being:

Justin Timberlake
LCD Soundsystem
Maroon 5
Rihanna
Yeah Yeah Yeahs

So would anybody support any of these artists in our next class, or is it still "too soon"? (I'm not saying I support all of them, but they are all decent contenders in some level or niche). LCD Soundsystem definitely has my vote already.

Posted by Paul Kagebein on Sunday, 11.6.11 @ 16:26pm

Paul:

Out of all those acts that you listed only The Strokes and LCD Soundsystem would be added to my queue. Yeah Yeah Yeahs is a maybe for me. I doubt I would vote for any of those 3 in the next year.

The crazy thing is that the next year I already have 3 guaranteed votes for first year eligibles with Animal Collective, Arcade Fire and Kanye West. Even TV On The Radio could receive a vote.

Posted by Gassman on Sunday, 11.6.11 @ 20:02pm

Gassman,
all three of those (Animal Collective, Arcade Fire, Kanye) will definitely be first-years for me too, although I know enough of my queue won't be used up next ballot to score a spot for TV on the Radio the year after as well.

There's about twenty-five acts I want to get in before them. Great band though, I do agree.

Belle & Sebastian, Modest Mouse, Death Cab for Cutie, anyone?

Posted by Paul Kagebein on Sunday, 11.6.11 @ 23:15pm

Belle and Sebastian have been snubbed so much in our projects it's not funny. only one song inducted and despite getting some of the strongest support in the pre vote rankings got next to no votes. I'm more than up for supporting them.

Also if the Strokes get some more support I'll vote for them, same with Kanye.

Posted by GFW on Monday, 11.7.11 @ 11:50am

Yeah, I think about ten people had already voted before I submitted my ballot; I decided to take off Belle & Sebastian after seeing they only had one vote. I think it was the same situation with The Strokes. It's a shame really, we have next to no indie rock. Pavement's a good solo representative and I suppose you could consider The Flaming Lips and a couple of other alternative acts indie-ish, but we hardly have anything to show for of this entire critically acclaimed sector of music. I know we have a few some awesome names (LCD Soundsystem, Animal Collective, Arcade Fire, Franz Ferdinand, TV on the Radio, MGMT, Fleet Foxes) coming up in a few classes, but it'd be nice to get in acts with a little more career under their band-belts.

More controversially, I could say the same for country, to a smaller extent. I plan on supporting the just-missed-out Garth Brooks again next cycle.

Anyways: Belle & Sebastian, Modest Mouse, Death Cab, The Strokes, The Shins, Neutral Milk Hotel, Elliott Smith, Spoon, Guided by Voices, Yo La Tengo, Broken Social Scene, and Phoenix would all be worthy additions, although I'm not suggesting we oversaturate the class with them. Two or even three would be well-deserved though.

Posted by Paul Kagebein on Monday, 11.7.11 @ 13:05pm

I would be down if we wanted make make a push for Garth Brooks to into the influence category, but I can't vote for him in the Perfumers section. All of the country performers that we have inducted, with the possible exception of Johnny Cash who I consider to equally Rock 'n' Roll, have been inducted as influences. If Willie Nelson, Patsy Cline and Dolly Parton are in the influence category then Garth Brooks should be in that category as well.

Posted by Gassman on Monday, 11.7.11 @ 13:26pm

I was one of the people who signed up to potentially vote for Belle and Sebastian, but didn't.

I'll almost certainly vote for them next time.

Posted by Tahvo Parvianen on Monday, 11.7.11 @ 13:35pm

Gassman, I do see the logic in that, but I don't think it's really the case. Garth Brooks is NOT really an influence. and Patsy Cline, Willie Nelson, Dolly Parton, Merle Haggard and George Jones shouldn't have been either. They are all performers who did not precede "rock". Key word: precede. They helped make country a part of "rock", just as Grandmaster Flash, Run-D.M.C., Public Enemy, etc. have done for hip-hop/rap. I mean reggae is less "rock" than country, but nobody questions Bob Marley. Nobody questions ABBA.

For the better, the Rock Hall isn't restricted to rock and never has been. and this is true with our Rock Hall Revisited/Projected projects especially. In the Album and Song projects we don't segregate by genres, we segregate by year. Garth Brooks has tracks and albums that are not counted as "early influences" because they aren't. They were released after the established date, and therefore should not be inducted as influences.

Why is it a different policy over here?

As time went on, country became as much a part of rock as all of the other genres we have represented. Especially by the time Garth Brooks became prominent. I know country is different from rap because it was an influence of rock, not a product of it, but that does not equate that all performers are influences of rock. In fact, many are products of it, combined with country.

Posted by Paul Kagebein on Monday, 11.7.11 @ 13:57pm

I hope anybody who thinks that Garth Brooks, a man who began his recording career in 1989, should be inducted as an influence also supports the transplanting of Stevie Ray Vaughan to the influence category as well, since Blues wasn't an offshoot of rock and roll and influenced it just like Country did. Otherwise they're being hypocritical.

And dont give me the "Oh well SRV mixed the Blues with Rock" argument. It doesn't work cause Garth did the same thing with Country and Rock.

We give ourselves this great pep talk about how we're superior to Cleveland because we'll consider Prog, Hard Rock, Metal, Rap etc. when we have prejudices towards Country and Pop (post-1980s) that are just as bad.

Not trying to sound condescending, but come on people.

Posted by Jim on Monday, 11.7.11 @ 15:22pm

Jim, if this were Facebook, I would "like" your comment. I completely agree about the prejudices in all of the projects we have done. They've been very enjoyable to participate in, but if we're not going to acknowledge all genres of music, we lose a little bit of credibility amongst ourselves. I'm not saying we should induct just anything that may have been significant at any point, but so much worthy representation shouldn't be sacrificed at such a subjective level.

Posted by Paul Kagebein on Monday, 11.7.11 @ 21:09pm

Jim, I just plain won't be voting for Garth Brooks in the Performers category OR the Influence category, simply because I think his music SUCKS!

That said, I intend to maintain my push for the Moonglows and the Dells and Wanda Jackson. There's a lot of ignorance in the thinking of the Dells as a late '60s and early '70s soul group. Truth is, they were around the scene since the dawn of rock'n'roll. They just never broke onto the pop scene until much later, but they were a fixture on the R&B charts for a long time before they got big with crossover success. Wanda Jackson being inducted in our version as an Influence is slightly less fraudulent than the Real Hall inducting her as an Early Influence, since the vast majority of her career WAS country, but I still feel she should be a Performer because her early rockabilly days are absolutely quintessential. As for the Moonglows, excellent group who not only gave us the classic "Sincerely", but also gave us "Please Send Me Someone To Love" and "The Ten Commandments Of Love", which are R&B/soul classics. Plus, "See Saw" is a darn good record.

Art Rupe would be a good N-P addition too. I actually give the Real Hall kudos for inducting him. Hopefully we can get him and songwriting duo Steve Barri and P.F. Sloan in next time around.

Posted by Philip on Monday, 11.7.11 @ 22:34pm

The Dells, the Moonglows and ESPECIALLY Wanda Jackson are NOT early influences. If ever there was a fact, that's one!

When this resumes I'm going to be pushing for Wanda Jackson as a Performer. Here we are, thinking we're so much better than Cleveland and then we go and do the same mistake they do.

Posted by Tahvo Parvianen on Tuesday, 11.8.11 @ 04:44am

Actually, the Dells and the Moonglows are just as much NOT early influences as Wanda Jackson, I just highlighted Wanda because there was a push to get her in as an influence. Something that hasn't really occurred in a major way for the Dells/Moonglows.

Posted by Tahvo Parvianen on Tuesday, 11.8.11 @ 04:46am

Where the hell is Linda Ronstadt? Why hasn't she already been inducted? It's disgraceful. And Heart? Pat Benatar, Stevie Nicks (solo), Carly Simon, Carole King, The Go-Gos, Joan Armatrading, Joan Jett, et al. What is going on with female rockers not being allowed into the Hall?

Posted by Yikes on Friday, 12.2.11 @ 20:32pm

Linda Ronstadt:

She has been called the “Queen of Rock.“
She has been called “The First Lady Of Rock.“
She has earned 11 Grammys, two Academy Of Country Music awards, an Emmy, an American Latino Media Arts award and she has received Tony and Golden Globe nominations.
She ranked No. 1 female singles seller in 1975 and 1977.
Combining albums and singles, she is one of the highest ranking artists in the history of recorded music.
All told, she has posted 38 singles on the Billboard Hot 100, reaching the top 10 on 10 different occasions, No. 2 three times and the top spot once. On the Billboard top album charts, she has 36 entries, including 10 that reached the top 10 and three that hit No. 1.
She has reached the UK top 40 with five albums and three singles, including a No. 2 single in 1989.
Between 1969 and 1994 she has had 20 singles reach the Canadian top 40, including two that peaked at No. 2 and two that reached No. 1, and nine top 20 LPs, including the “Trio” album, which hit No. 4, and “Simple Dreams,” which topped the Canadian charts.
On the Country charts, she has had solo albums and a single reach No. 1 in addition to a No. 1 collaboration with Dolly Parton and Emmylou Harris.
She is considered the first female solo artist popular enough to pack large concert arenas.
She was named top female artist of the 70s by Cash Box magazine.
She was the first female to have three consecutive platinum albums and her “Living In The USA” became the first album to ship double platinum. In addition, her “Canciones De Mi Padre” is the best selling non-English language album in United States history.
YET SHE IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH TO GET EVEN A NOMINATION FROM THE ROCK & ROLL HALL OF FAME!!!
This has to be some kind of sick joke.
She is, of course, Linda Ronstadt.

Posted by Yikes again on Friday, 12.2.11 @ 20:35pm

I thought it was a good idea to come up with our most snubbed on here based on how the most recent election went and which artists got the most support in the primary polls. There's a couple names I would personally like to add to this list which I haven't as this only covers artists which had more than 3 supporters. I did this more for my own reference, but decided why not post it here now? Also, since I went through this when I was sleep deprived I'm 100% sure I missed some names, feel free to add them if you notice any oversights:

10cc
13th Floor Elevators
A Tribe Called Quest
Alanis Morissette
Animal Collective
Anthrax
Arcade Fire
The Association
Bad Brains
Bauhaus
Belle & Sebastian
Ben E. King
Billy Bragg
Blood, Sweat & Tears
Blue Oyster Cult
Boston
Captain Beefheart and His Magic Band
Carole King
The Chemical Brothers
Chubby Checker
Cocteau Twins
The Commodores
The Crystals
The Damned
Dave Matthews Band
The Dells
Derek and the Dominos
Desmond Dekker
Dinosaur Jr.
Dream Theater
Echo and the Bunnymen
Elliott Smith
Emmylou Harris
The Fall
The Flaming Lips
Foreigner
Franz Ferdinand
Gang of Four
Garth Brooks
Gary Numan
George Michael
Goo Goo Dolls
Harold Melvin and the Blue Notes
Harry Chapin
Hawkwind
Human League
Jesus and Mary Chain
Jim Croce
Joe Cocker
Kool and the Gang
Lou Reed
Madness
Mariah Carey
Meat Loaf
The Misfits
Minor Threat
Moby
Modest Mouse
The Moonglows
Muse
Nas
Neu!
Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds
No Doubt
The Offspring
Ozzy Osbourne
Paul Revere and the Raiders
Peter Tosh
PJ Harvey
The Pogues
Pulp
Richard and Linda Thompson
The Shangri-Las
The Sonics
The Specials
The Spencer Davis Group
Suicide
Ted Nugent
Three Dog Night
Tommy James and the Shondells
Toots and the Maytals
Tori Amos
Ultravox
The Verve
Violent Femmes
Wanda Jackson
Wilco
Wire

Posted by Tahvo Parvianen on Saturday, 12.3.11 @ 05:35am

Gah, the Flaming Lips were inducted last round (D'oh). Told you i was sleep deprived.

Posted by Tahvo Parvianen on Saturday, 12.3.11 @ 05:39am

Also Animal Collective and Arcade Fire aren't eligible until the year after our next round of voting.

Posted by Gassman on Saturday, 12.3.11 @ 05:48am

Also Emmylou Harris was inducted as a influence in the last round.

Posted by Gassman on Saturday, 12.3.11 @ 05:52am

Thanks Gassman.

Posted by Tahvo Parvianen on Saturday, 12.3.11 @ 07:06am

I don't know how many supporters these acts had but I think they probably belong in a most snubbed list:

KRS-One/Boogie Down Productions
De La Soul
Carly Simon
Cyndi Lauper
Kool and the Gang (last mandatory disco induction imo)

Posted by rockstar23 on Saturday, 12.3.11 @ 07:28am

With everybody giving their personal opinions on music and the artists we have inducted, I feel like I should give my two cents on my musical opinions. I am going to go class by class and give a short paragraph on each artist. I’ll also give my favorite song and album (if applicable).

1986

Chuck Berry – Easily my favorite early Rock and Roll performer. The fact that plays lead guitar and wrote his own songs along with his lead vocals places him in much higher personal regard then other artists of the era. That’s one reason why I also struggle when trying to think of who is great between Berry and Elvis (Elvis usually ends up winning). One of my biggest musical goals in life is to head down to St. Louis and see one if his shows.

Favorite Song – Johnny B. Goode
Favorite Album – N/A

James Brown & The Famous Flames – For some reason I have never been as big of a fan of James Brown as I have been in other early R&B performers. Yet he is the Godfather of Soul and he has a ton of great songs. Also I really respect his ability to change and transform genres. I have always been more of a fan of his funkier stuff, but I still can respect some of that 50’s R&B.

Favorite Song – Papa’s Got A Brand New Bag (Part 1)
Favorite Album – Live At The Apollo

Ray Charles – Here is another person that I really haven’t been able to get that into. He has a few songs that I really enjoy like “What’d I Say” and “I Got A Woman.” Yet other than that and a few others I really don’t click that well with his music. I know he did a lot of important things like mixing R&B with Jazz and then later with Country, so respect him a ton for that.

Favorite Song – What’d I Say
Favorite Album – N/A

Buddy Holly & The Crickets – Buddy Holly is probably my favorite white Rock and Roller of the 1950’s (Elvis is close). There is just something about him that just seems so much more organic than Elvis. Also that fact that he, along with The Crickets, were huge influences on The Beatles only puts Holly in higher personal regard. Songs like “That’ll Be The Day,” “Peggy Sue,” and “Not Fade Away” are some of my favorites of that decade. The intro to “That’ll Be The Day” gives me chills every time I hear it. Rock and Roll missed out on a ton of potential when he died.

Favorite Song – That’ll Be The Day
Favorite Album – The “Chirping” Crickets

Jerry Lee Lewis – “Great Balls of Fire” and “Whole Lotta Shakin’ Goin’ On” are two of the best and most important songs of early Rock music. Yet when it comes to Jerry Lee Lewis I always ask “Ok, that’s awesome, what’s next?” Unfortunately I haven’t been able to find anything else that I enjoy like those two songs. Some of his country songs are good and I enjoyed his duet album “Last Man Standing,” but everything else just seems lacking. Am I missing something here?

Favorite Song – Great Balls Of Fire
Favorite Album – N/A

Elvis Presley – What really can be said about The King. There are so many great songs from three decades. My favorite era of his would have to be those early Sun Records recordings. I love “That’s All Right” and “Mystery Train” as they more organic than some of later 50’s recordings. You can here the different musical genre’s mixing in the recording. Also he recordings from his late 60’s come back era is also really good.

Favorite Song – That’s All Right
Favorite Album – Sun Session Recordings

Little Richard – “Bop bopa-a-lu a whop bam bo” What else do you need to know about Little Richard? Recording some of the best early rock songs he helped add the eccentric, random and crazy aspects to early Rock music.

Favorite Song – Tutti Frutti
Favorite Album - N/A

Posted by Gassman on Saturday, 12.10.11 @ 19:42pm

Of all of next years newly eligible artists I would support The Black Keys, The Decemberists, LCD Soundsystem, The Mars Volta, The Libertines, & Yeah Yeah Yeahs.

Posted by Greg F on Saturday, 12.10.11 @ 20:51pm

Oh and also Maroon 5.

Posted by Greg F on Saturday, 12.10.11 @ 21:18pm

I'll vote for LCD Soundsystem this round. On one hand it feels weird to me to induct them right away with important predecessors like Suicide, Throbbing Gristle, Gary Numan/Tubeway Army, Aphex Twin, the Chemical Brothers and Moby still sitting out there, but at this point I'll vote for any electronic act that gathers support.

The Black Keys might make my ballot right away depending how things shape up.

I'm highly supportive of Yeah, Yeah, Yeahs, the Libertines, the Decemberists and Davendra Banhart, but probably won't get to any of them right away.

Cee-Lo Green, Iron & Wine and the Mars Volta are all acts that I would possibly support at some point when we've chipped away more of our backlog.

Posted by DarinRG on Saturday, 12.10.11 @ 23:01pm

I'd like to see John Denver in the influence category.

I'll also be voting for Luther Vandross, Sufjan Stevens, The Shangri-Las, and Salt-N-Pepa next round for performers.

We should get Don Kirshner, Art Rupe and Glyn Johns in the NP section, along with Sylvia Robinson.

Posted by DC on Saturday, 12.10.11 @ 23:37pm

My ballot will likely consist of:

Nick Cave & The Bad Seeds
The Commodores
The Pogues
Salt-N-Pepa
The Shangri-Las
Sufjan Stevens
Luther Vandross

Posted by DC on Saturday, 12.10.11 @ 23:43pm

Belle & Sebastian. They have the support. Let's get behind them next fall!

Posted by Casper on Sunday, 12.11.11 @ 02:13am

I'm definitely echoing your support on The Commodores and The Shangri-Las, DC. Especially the latter, which I think should be a mandatory female inductee.

Speaking of female inductees, I think we're lacking in 80s and 90s female represantation, for mainstream rock Pat Benatar and Alanis Morissette defines their respective decades. I think Carly Simon should be in as well.

As for hip-hop, I'm definitely pulling for A Tribe Called Quest next. We still don't have alternative hip-hop represented. Salt-N-Pepa are cool but I'd be more willing to push Queen Latifah instead.

Nick Cave & The Bad Seeds also look very good for my vote. I love Sugjan but I don't know if I'll have room for him in my ballot.

Finally, I see your John Denver and raise you a Conway Twitty (who I will be pulling for as an influence).

Posted by rockstar23 on Sunday, 12.11.11 @ 02:48am

I will throw toward support for Belle & Sebastian next fall. I have several acts newly eligible and backlog I wish to support. I've already listed newly eligibles I would support. Backlog I still wish to support along with Belle & Sebastian: Wanda Jackson, Carly Simon, Blue Oyster Cult, Dream Theater, Carole King, Joe Cocker, Blood, Sweat, & Tears, The Shangri-Las, Sufjan Stevens, Anthrax, KMFDM and many others. So I'll have to sort through a large list of artists I would support to pick 7 for next fall. I can say as of now I do plan on voting for Belle & Sebastian, Wanda Jackson, & KMFDM next fall.

Posted by Greg F on Sunday, 12.11.11 @ 02:53am

Good call on Wanda Jackson, Greg. I'll definitely be supporting her. This induction has been a long-time coming for this project, hopefully we can finally pull the trigger on it come next year.

Posted by rockstar23 on Sunday, 12.11.11 @ 03:09am

I'm supportive of a Belle & Sebasian induction, but I've got an awful lot of priorities that have been blocking them from my ballot lately. They are in consideration for a spot, though.

As for influence, I could see using a vote for either John Denver or Conway Twitty, but I think we're also due for an Influence inductee that's a little more adventurous and breaks out of the safe Blues-Jazz-Country mold. Someone like a John Cage or Karlheinz Stockhausen who influenced the avaunt-garde/experimental side of things or even a major influential Franco-pop star like Jacques Brel or Serge Gainsbourg.

With the generation of acts that we're looking at and considering right now I think we really need to expand our scope of Influence candidates out of the safe, traditional zone.

Posted by DarinRG on Sunday, 12.11.11 @ 03:22am

I'd also love to not see Cleveland beat us to Bad Brains, which could well happen.

Posted by DarinRG on Sunday, 12.11.11 @ 03:45am

I could see myself supporting Jacques Brel as an influence, speaking of which, I'd like to see his song "Amsterdam" inducted over at the song project.

In terms of the Performer candidates, I'll definitely be supporting Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds, Wanda Jackson, the Pogues and the Spencer Davis Group. That's already four I'm certain on, we really need to get Wanda Jackson in as a Performer and not an influence. Also, I think that now with the Small Faces/Faces in Cleveland, the Hall will go for the Spencer Davis Group and I'd really hate for them to beat us to it with these guys.

Posted by Tahvo Parvianen on Sunday, 12.11.11 @ 05:18am

In regards to Belle and sebastian, why on earth are they not in? they have so much support leading up but suddenly everyone drops them.

Posted by GFW on Sunday, 12.11.11 @ 07:25am

I'd like to see his song "Amsterdam" inducted over at the song project. -Tahvo

Count me in.

Posted by DarinRG on Sunday, 12.11.11 @ 15:56pm

As far as my ballot next year goes, Nick Cave and LCD Soundsystem are locks. Bad Brains are highly likely. If it seems that the respectable amount of support that Captain Beefheart and the Fall got last round is going to carry over, I would get behind either or both of them.

I'm also strongly considering Belle & Sebastian and the Spencer Davis Group.

Also, with No Doubt almost making it in last round it got me thinking that we could really use some work in the Ska/Reggae area. If there was any support for someone like the Specials, Desmond Dekker, Burning Spear, Toots & the Maytals or Peter Tosh I could get behind that.

I had wanted to start pushing a little more aggressively for either Bauhaus or Siouxsie & the Banshees, but I'll probably hold off on that with three punk/post-punk acts already likely to be on my ballot. I also probably wont vote for any electronic acts this year except LCD as it would likely be a wasted vote to have two acts from that direction on my ballot.

Posted by DarinRG on Sunday, 12.11.11 @ 16:19pm

Belle & Sebastian has my vote next year.

I promise.

I'm also almost guaranteed to vote for LCD Soundsystem and Death Cab for Cutie. The latter depends if I can get more support though, because as it seems I'm the only one who strongly does.

Fourthly, I want to see Garth Brooks get in. He deserves it, and in no way is he an EARLY influence, no matter what anyone says. Willie Nelson and George Jones really shouldn't have been either.

Fifth, I will most likely vote for The Offspring. I like Bad Brains and Minor Threat, but The Offspring is my next punk vote.

Sixth and seventh, are still up in the air.

I'm considering Modest Mouse, Pantera, No Doubt, Sufjan Stevens, and Dream Theater. So any support my picks?

Posted by Paul Kagebein on Sunday, 12.11.11 @ 16:49pm

We don't have a early influence category. I'll be voting for Garth Brooks in the the Influences category. Would be one of our biggest inconsistency if we inducted him as a performer.

Posted by Gassman on Sunday, 12.11.11 @ 18:30pm

Actually, inducting Garth Brooks as an Influence would be a massive inconsistency on are part. Just because he comes from a genre that predated Rock and Roll doesn't mean he shouldn't be considered as a Performer. If that's the case, we need to throw Stevie Ray Vaughan in the Influences category since Blues predated Rock and Roll too. I see people stating that they'll vote for LCD Soundsystem, Kanye West etc., you seriously can't say they somehow pass the "rock and roll" test and Garth Brooks doesn't.

I'd really like to hear this case for Garth Brooks as an influence though. Dude was making his records around the same time as acts like Public Enemy and Nirvana, so he certainly doesn't meet the timeframe of an "Influence". To me, it seems like people are just trying to drag their feet rather than just admit he's worthy. They can't outright say he's not worthy (except for Phillip), because his influence is way too obvious, but they won't vote for him cause he's a Country artist. If the likes of Jay-Z, Donna Summer and the Carpenters fall under our definition of "rock and roll" there's no way you can possibly not include Garth under that.

I'd argue Garth was alot like Johnny Cash, in the sense that his music fell under the "Country" banner but had alot of rock influence in it. And we didn't induct Johnny Cash as an influence either.

We already messed up on Country by inducting Willie Nelson as an Influence when he should've been in as a Performer, lets not do the same with Garth.

Posted by Jim on Sunday, 12.11.11 @ 22:56pm

Innovation and Influence. What did Garth do that was innovative? Who did he influence aside from modern country stars? If you induct him, why not induct Shania Twain and Travis Tritt and whomever else. Modern country is a separate and distinctive genre that is not related to rock 'n roll being about rebellion and creativity. Johnny Cash, Willie Nelson, Brenda Lee, Wanda Jackson...all clearly made what you could consider rock music and toed the line between the country of the time and rock of the time. Hank Williams? A clear and obvious influence on future rock artists.

But Garth Brooks? No freakin' way. Did he influence Animal Collective? Coldplay? Radiohead? Anybody? No.

Posted by Casper on Sunday, 12.11.11 @ 23:02pm

Here's the key. If Garth Brooks, why not Kenny G? What's the difference? They both sold bucket-loads of records years ago that had nothing to do with rock and are both mostly afterthoughts in the music of today.

Posted by Casper on Sunday, 12.11.11 @ 23:03pm

Also when it comes to newly eligibles I'm casting a vote for Kanye West. I think it's too soon to judge Maroon 5 yet, although they've gotten off to a good start.

My ballot will pretty much be the same as it was last year:

The Offspring
George Michael
Garth Brooks (As a performer)
The Commodores
Tommy James & The Shondells
Kanye West
Mariah Carey (Cause it's about time we start acknowleding 90s R&B damnit)

Posted by Jim on Sunday, 12.11.11 @ 23:03pm

Basically, I feel that we should be inducting Hip Hop artists and Country artists that blur the lines. A few years ago, I was looking for music videos On Demand on cable and under BET's channel, there was a rock sub-listing. I clicked it and low-and-behold it was a selection of videos from Jay-Z and Kanye West. Just as there's clearly a difference between the artist like Kanye that advance music forward and sample heavily from the rock-era compared to some bland obvious thug rapper, there's a difference between an innovator like Hank Williams and someone that polishes modern country turds like Garth Brooks. The country Hall of Fame is where they'll induct the Garth Brooks's of the world just as how the inevitable Hip Hop Hall of Fame will induct the Master P's of the world. We're here to focus on rock and get the crossover artists that are groundbreaking and widely important. Just as we don't focus on bland modern rock by inducting Nickelback, we don't focus on un-innovative modern country by inducting Garth Brooks.

Posted by Casper on Sunday, 12.11.11 @ 23:06pm

Garth Brooks won't get my vote as a performer. All of our Country acts have been inducted in the influences section. I consider Johnny Cash and Stevie Ray Vaughan to be closer to Rock on the music spectrum than to Blues/County, thats why I personally have no problem with them in the performers section. Garth Brooks is pure Country, which to me equals influence section. My guess in this situation is we are just going to split votes and he'll end up not getting inducted in either category.

Posted by Gassman on Sunday, 12.11.11 @ 23:13pm

"Modern Country is a separate and distinctive genre that is not related to rock and roll being about rebellion and creativity"

Right, because when I think of "rebellion and creativity" I think of Coldplay.

"Who did he influence outside of modern Country Stars?"

And who did the Carpenters influence outside of Adult Contempary? And who did LL Cool J influence outside of Rap? You can have this argument with any genre of music thats not white kids thrashing guitars. Inevitably, a certain segment of musicians will be influenced by a certain artist the most. In this case, Garth influenced alot of Country.

Just because a bunch of indie rockers aren't blasting out "Friends In Low Places" at concerts doesn't mean Garth hasn't influenced others and earned a spot. We've inducted Performers who had a lot less to do with Rock and Roll than Garth did (Linda Ronstadt anyone?)

Our scope of rock and roll has gotten pretty wide, and Country fits into it IMO. Last time I checked the criteria was "Influence, Innovation and perpetuation of the artform". No set guidelines against Country there. This is the same attitude that persists at the real Hall, except instead of Country they refuse to consider Prog cause they don't think that's "real rock and roll" either.

Posted by Jim on Sunday, 12.11.11 @ 23:17pm

Good points Casper.

Also Kanye West isn't eligible in this next round of voting, he'll be eligible the year after.

Posted by Gassman on Sunday, 12.11.11 @ 23:18pm

That's a fair enough explanation Casper, I dont agree, but I understand it.

Posted by Jim on Sunday, 12.11.11 @ 23:19pm

I think we should have some sort of trigger effect to prevent candidates from being inducted. We only vote on this once a year and with so many ballots being full of non-contenders, somebody like Garth can get in even if the other 3/4 of voting members strongly disagree.

I say, after the initial voting, someone can start a campaign to not allow somebody in and if 50% are in favor, that candidate isn't inducted. It would also be a good model to have just in case we suddenly get flooded by Coven fans or whatever.

Posted by Casper on Sunday, 12.11.11 @ 23:19pm

Is there any support for KMFDM? I plan on voting for them if there is enough support for them. If any other industrial act has more support than KMFDM I likely vote for something else in it's place. I do intend to vote for an industrial act next year if the support is there. As of now my pick is KMFDM.

Posted by Greg F on Monday, 12.12.11 @ 02:02am

On the Garth Brooks issue, I can really only echo what Gassman and Casper have said.

I agree with Jim on one point: inducting Willie Nelson as an Influence rather than a Performer was a mistake. But, that's because the likes Willie Nelson, Johnny Cash, Waylon Jennings or Steve Earle (who's a name worth considering sometime soon) were as relevant as rock artists as they were country (and Stevie Ray Vaughan and the three Kings were to rock and blues). Garth Brooks was pure overproduced modern Nashville product, which is something that is completely separate from what we're acknowledging here.

As far as throwing out LCD Soundsystem and Kanye West as examples of questionable "rock" credentials, that's creeping into the territory of the drive-by cretins who only think about the HoF once a year while they're whining about it on a main stream news site. And I know that you're far above those types, Jim. Synthpop and Rap/Hip-hop are genres that developed in the "Rock and Roll" era, under direct influence, and fall under that umbrella, but modern Nashville establishment country has a completely different line of lineage.

As far as Casper's trigger idea goes, it would be tempting to use if Garth Brooks or the Offspring are ever inducted (and I'm not being intentionally personal toward Jim or Paul K on those two, I just strongly disagree with the merits of both candidates), or even to use retroactively on "Wierd Al" Yankovic, but I could see the real potential for backfire. We're better to just accept our bad inductees and moving on. ;)

Posted by DarinRG on Monday, 12.12.11 @ 02:25am

Agreed DarinRG. No trigger effect. A couple more influence induction mistakes Emmylou Harris, Screamin' Jay Hawkins, Esther Philips, Joan Baez, and Chuck Willis. I feel these acts should have been inducted as performers.

Posted by Greg F on Monday, 12.12.11 @ 02:36am

I agree with all of those, Greg F, even though I contributed to the mistake on some of them.

On the KMFDM question, any other year I'd be enthusiastically on board, but with LCD Soundsystem being first ballot this year and seeming to have good support, I'd be really surprised to see two electronic acts have a strong showing in the same year (or the same decade) with our track record.

Posted by DarinRG on Monday, 12.12.11 @ 02:48am

I'll likely vote for LCD Soundsystem next fall. I'll see what happens.

Posted by Greg F on Monday, 12.12.11 @ 03:28am

I regretably had a part of the influence induction of Screamin' Jay Hawkins. If I could go back in time I would have pushed for him in the performer category instead of the influence.

Posted by Greg F on Monday, 12.12.11 @ 03:32am

I would absolutely support the Specials if there were more people willing to vote them.

I would also definitely be willing to vote for Latifah rather than S-N-P if support built. I think that both Queen Latifah and Salt-N-Pepa, along with A Tribe Called Quest are essential hip-hop inductees, but I doubt I could make room for ATCQ unless my backlog clears.

I really, really hope Sufjan Stevens can build support.

Posted by DC on Monday, 12.12.11 @ 04:25am

I absolutely agree the Specials should be inducted, especially if No Doubt is getting strong consideration, count me in on the Specials.

Posted by Tahvo Parvianen on Monday, 12.12.11 @ 04:30am

So far, my next ballot will include:

Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds
The Commodores
Tommy James and the Shondells
George Michael

Count me in as supporting the Specials; they're the middle ground between the classic reggae artists we've looked at in the past, and the later ska-punk bands who've been slowly getting traction from No Doubt on down. I'd like to see them a little more love seeing as the whole two-tone/ska-punk end of the spectrum came from their work.

Greg F., I's place KMFDM third on my list of industrial bands needing consideration. I see Throbbing Gristle and Skinny Puppy as being more important in the long run. In the same area, we also have goth music to consider, with the Damned and Bauhaus being comparable (not to mention quite a few other groups from that era, such as Wire, the Cramps, Siouxie and the Banshees, Cabaret Voltaire and the Art of Noise). However, any vote for a band from that era will probably be taken up by the Specials, so it's a moot point for me.

Hip hop is getting a little harder for me to peg down. Right now, I see the most eligible artists in that area being Snoop Dogg, A Tribe Called Quest, De La Soul, the Fugees and the Sugarhill Gang (in roughly that order). All of them have their merits and reasons for consideration; I'm just not sure which of them trumps the others. Salt-n-Pepa have the crossover success, but I don't see them making the final cut in terms of induction; while Queen Latifah and Monie Love and arguably even Neneh Cherry or Roxanne Shante are way below that in my estimation. Same thing goes with Nas, KRS-One/Boogie Down Productions or Ice-T.

I'm sitting out of the Garth Brooks argument. I can understand the reasoning behind voting for him (and the Dixie Chicks for that matter). But neither of them will be getting my vote any time soon, so it doesn't matter to me.

Posted by Ian on Monday, 12.12.11 @ 08:49am

:o... perhaps I should never mention "Garth Brooks" again. Goodness gracious. One final directly-related point: In hindsight, I think the influences category should have always been "Early Influences". Everything that was prominently active after 1954/55 should have been in the Performer category. The line between what genres are rock and which aren't are very blurry. We should have gone the route of our Song and Album Projects and been all-genre inclusive. That's just my opinion, others are welcome to disagree of course.

Anyways, glad to see support for Sufjan Stevens and LCD Soundsystem. If I'm voting for any hip-hop/rap artist at this point, it will be Snoop Dogg. I would vote for Dr. Dre, but he's already in as a non-performer for his incredible work as a producer. I assume this makes him ineligible as a Performer as well, even though he's very qualified?

Posted by Paul Kagebein on Monday, 12.12.11 @ 10:50am

I'd throw a vote towards John Denver, but was he more country or country rock? Just wondering what everyone's opinions are.

I think it should be time to induct Ozzy Osbourne. I think his solo career definitely has the credentials. Anthrax and System of a Down are also among my metal queue.

Some support thrown towards the punk scene would be nice. I know I keep saying this, but Bad Brains, the Damned, Minor Threat, Misfits, & Sonics are all more than worthy for induction. I like the Offspring, and would vote for them, but I feel like the previous five all have greater credentials.

I think Wanda Jackson is an important one too. And I feel that putting her in the influences category would be a major mistake. I've already explained that if she should be an influence just because she is the so-called "Queen of Rockabilly" than Carl Perkins was a mistake as a performer, since he's the "King of Rockabilly" and his music outdates hers! In that regard, they're on equal footing, and should both be performers.

For hip hop, I don't know, I feel like it's important to induct those that have that connection to rock. I suppose A Tribe Called Quest is a good option.

There are a bunch of other inductees on that list that Tahvo posted that i'd support.

I'll stay mum on the Garth Brooks debate. I see both sides to the argument. I don't agree with the trigger effect thing though. I feel like that can backfire far too easily.

Posted by Steve Z on Monday, 12.12.11 @ 12:10pm

Kanye's eligible this year isn't he? if he is he's getting a vote.

As for modern country not being rock enough to be worthy... what, rap is? When I see people try and link rock to rap i always think the links are way to odistant to be significant. rap came from a mix of disco, funk and reggae. wel lreggae came from ska, discois kind athe child of funk and funk -> soul -> doo wop which has a bit in common with rock and roll of the 50's, a stlye that died in the early 60's. hardly a great link with rock.

Posted by GFW on Monday, 12.12.11 @ 12:25pm

Kanye West isn't eligible for the next round of voting. He'll be eligible the year after. If you want to see who is the newly eligible artists next year, look at this list:

http://www.futurerocklegends.com/year.php?eligible_year=2027

Posted by Gassman on Monday, 12.12.11 @ 13:37pm

Having a look... nobody I feel like supporting there.

Also how come so much talk on here and not on the song/album projects? this has got 9 months till it carrys on, they've got 3 weeks!

Posted by GFW on Monday, 12.12.11 @ 14:11pm

I'll throw my 2 cents into the argument here.

As of now, I'll probably follow the same type of ballot breakdown that I had last time around consisting of:

1 Real R&RHOFer
1 90's Artist
1 Punk Artist
1 Metal Artist
1 Alternative Artist
1 Rap/R&B Artist
1 "Classic" Rock Artist

My considerations for those spots are as follows:

Real R&RHOFer: Wanda Jackson, The Small Faces/Faces, The Dells, The Moonglows, Percy Sledge - At this point, it looks like Wanda Jackson has a lot of support, so I'm almost 100% sure she'll be my pick.

90's Artist: No Doubt, Dave Matthews Band, PJ Harvey, Tori Amos, Sublime - Like Wanda Jackson, this pick is pretty well set in stone. I voted for No Doubt last time and they just missed the cut. I'll be voting for them again.

Punk Artist: The Offspring, Bad Brains, The Misfits, Fugazi, Minor Threat - Though I've been voting for The Offspring for a couple of years now, I worry that their support has topped out. That said, while there are better options from the late 70's/early 80's, there doesn't seem to be much agreement on which band should be next in line. If that stays the same, I'll likely vote for The Offspring again.

Metal Band: Pantera, Ozzy Osbourne, System of a Down, Korn, Anthrax - After almost nobody voted for Ozzy Osbourne last year, I'm hesitant to throw a vote his way again. I personally feel strongly enough about Pantera's candidacy that I'd consider a strong campaign to induct them. They will likely get my vote this time around.

Alternative band: Nick Cave & the Bad Seeds, The Fall, Bauhaus, Siouxsie & the Banshees, Belle & Sebastian - I think that all of these bands deserve consideration (with Bauhaus being the most worthy), but I'm inclined to follow whichever band has the most support. At this point, it looks like Nick Cave, but that could easily change closer to the next round.

Rap/R&B Artist: The Commodores, Kool & the Gang, A Tribe Called Quest, Mariah Carey, Nas - Now that Missy Elliot has been inducted, there doesn't seem to be consistent support for any one particular rap artist, so I doubt I'll be voting for one this time around. I think Mariah Carey deserves induction, but I see way too much resistance against modern pop music to think she has a chance right now. I will likely vote for The Commodores since their support seems to be pretty good right now.

Classic Rock: Tommy James & the Shondells, The Spencer Davis Group, Boston, Ted Nugent, Blue Oyster Cult - I'll admit that I have absolutely no idea who will get my vote. I'll probably hold serve on this one until shortly before voting starts next September. If I had to pick right now, I'd go with Tommy James & the Shondells.

In summary, if I voted right now, my ballot would consist of:

Wanda Jackson
No Doubt
The Offspring
Pantera
Nick Cave & the Bad Seeds
The Commodores
Tommy James & the Shondells

To weigh in on a couple of other topics:

LCD Soundsystem - Sorry, but if this band gets in right away, it'll be a mistake. When you consider how few bands we've inducted from the 2000's, and how few bands we've inducted on the first-ballot lately, it just doesn't add up. They aren't close to being the biggest indie rock snub and haven't made enough of an impact this decade to suggest that they should get in ahead of (among others) System of a Down, Queens of the Stone Age, The Strokes, Wilco or Muse, who are all already eligible and are significant snubs from the decade. If you really want to see an indie rock band get in, I'd vote for Belle & Sebastian or Modest Mouse.

Garth Brooks - I'm going to have to sit on the fence on this one. Both sides make good arguments, but as others have said I wouldn't vote for him right now anyway so it matter really matter to me.

Kanye West - He'll be on my ballot for the 2030 cycle when he's eligible for the 1st time.

Posted by BSLO on Monday, 12.12.11 @ 14:13pm

Sorry, that should say "doesn't really matter to me".

Is Kanye West eligible for the 2029 or 2030 class? Looking at the "Future Eligibles" list on this website, Guns N' Roses are listed under 2011, but weren't inducted into our project until 2012 (their first time eligible). I would assume the same would apply to Kanye West since he's listed under 2029.

Posted by BSLO on Monday, 12.12.11 @ 14:18pm

Hmm, actually it looks like Kanye is listed on one page as 2028 and another as 2029. I'll go with what Gassman said and assume he'll eligible in 2028. :)

Posted by BSLO on Monday, 12.12.11 @ 14:27pm

I would suggest to vote John Denver in the performer. He's more of a mix country and soft rock. If you're going to support John Denver throw him in as a performer. Don't make the same mistake him like we did with Emmylou Harris. I believe she had qualifications as performer since she is more of a country rock artist as opposed to pure country.

Posted by Greg F on Monday, 12.12.11 @ 15:05pm

"As far as throwing out LCD Soundsystem and Kanye West as examples of questionable "rock" credentials, that's creeping into the territory of the drive-by cretins who only think about the HoF once a year while they're whining about it on a main stream news site. And I know that you're far above those types, Jim. Synthpop and Rap/Hip-hop are genres that developed in the "Rock and Roll" era, under direct influence, and fall under that umbrella, but modern Nashville establishment country has a completely different line of lineage."

Sorry if you misunderstood me, I'm not trying to be the kind of person that bitches about REO Speedwagon not being in.

But isn't it possible that modern Country has a lineage that is mixed with rock and roll? I often see Garth getting credit for mixing Country with stadium rock, so is that not an example of blurring the line (as Casper put it) between Rock and Country.

I just think that the notion that Garth isn't "rock enough" is completely absurd, as we've inducted more than a few artists who I wouldn't necessarily qualify as "Rock". I'd argue Garth's music had alot more of a "Rock" sound to it than Hall & Oates, Connie Francis, Donna Summer and others. (Not asking you to defend them, just throwing a couple out there)

Basically, my position is that the Rock Hall is really the music Hall of Fame and it chronicles the evolution of music, which includes Country. I personally don't care for Garth's music or the modern Nashville scene he influenced, but I'd be a fool to act as opposing his induction wouldn't be opposite to my position on stuff being "rock" enough for the Hall. I don't oppose Kanye or LCD Soundsystem either, I think our Hall is big enough for both Garth Brooks and Kanye West.

Were to induct Garth as an influence, I think it would be time to have a serious discussion about what constitutes an "influence" as aopposed to a "performer" cause there seems to be more than a few people who are/were displeased about several of our Influence inductees.

Posted by Jim on Monday, 12.12.11 @ 15:25pm

I would not ever vote for Garth Brooks. That's all I have to say about the matter.

Posted by Greg F on Monday, 12.12.11 @ 15:42pm

"Alternative band: Nick Cave & the Bad Seeds, The Fall, Bauhaus, Siouxsie & the Banshees, Belle & Sebastian - I think that all of these bands deserve consideration (with Bauhaus being the most worthy), but I'm inclined to follow whichever band has the most support. At this point, it looks like Nick Cave, but that could easily change closer to the next round." - BSLO

I agree with all of those. I've been pushing for Nick Cave for a long time, so I'm glad to see some support lining up. I would definitely join you in a push for Bauhaus after that, or even sooner if they started to build more momentum than the Fall, who had a respectable showing last round.

Also, as a general comment, remaining punk acts that I'd support, roughly in order are Bad Brains, the Damned, Minor Threat, the Misfits and Richard Hell & the Voidoids (also, the Sonics and Fugazi if you want to include them in this category). I'm pretty much 100% sure of voting for Bad Brains next round.

Posted by DarinRG on Monday, 12.12.11 @ 18:05pm

Jim, your comments sum up my feelings on the matter very nicely. It's more about what constitutes as an Influence as opposed to supporting Garth Brooks (it's not that I'm pushing for him as a performer so much as it is that I'm completely opposed to him (or any artist who doesn't pre-date the Rock Era) being inducted as an influence). I too view it as more of a Music Hall, like our Song and Album projects. But I don't really care anymore. To be honest, it should be about who I feel the seven best candidates not currently in our hall are. Those artists are who I should be pushing for. and Garth isn't one of them, even if he is one of the only contemporary country artists I truly am a fan of. Maybe in a few years we can have this discussion again. But there are certainly a few classes worth of artists who should get in before him.

Belle & Sebastian? Has my vote, that's decided.

LCD Soundsystem? Vote #2.

Death Cab for Cutie. Anyone?

Posted by Paul Kagebein on Tuesday, 12.13.11 @ 00:16am

Belle & Sebastian- yes

LCD Soundsystem- yes

Death Cab for Cutie- maybe

Posted by Greg F on Tuesday, 12.13.11 @ 00:31am

Philip said:


Hey gang, the Rock Hall Projected page won't load for me. It's got too many entries, I think, but I can still read the latest comments. If someone could copy and paste this entry on that page, I'd appreciate it.

Garth, no, I won't be voting for him either in Influence or Performer. His musical quality just doesn't pass muster for me.

Myself, if I can find a way to get the page to load, I'm going after most of the real Hall of Famers. Wanda, Moonglows and Dells, primarily. They've got to get in. The inductions of the Dells and Moonglows were NOT mistakes. They were darn good choices. Wanda belongs in as a Performer, NOT influence.

Belle And Sebastian I'd be willing to help with, too. If I remember them correctly, they've got a pretty cool sound despite being ethereal and trippy (not what I usually go for). Next in the punk catalog has gotta be Bad Religion. I do think we've gotta get back to mainstream, too. I know we love the alt-scenes, but realistically, the mainstream will always overshadow the alt in the real Hall. That will never change. For non-rap R&B, I'm pushing for Boyz II Men first, then Mariah later. There is still a huge backlog of oldies era artists that I'd like to get in as well, but knowing how greatly I'm outnumbered, I'm willing to play ball and help out you guys if you'll throw me a bone or two every cycle.

As for the other categories, if we haven't gotten Freddie King in yet, he would be a good call for Influence if we stick to previous trends. Not that we should, but I honestly don't see it changing. Kirshner, Rupe, and Johns should be put in our N-P inductions within the next two rounds, too.

Posted by classicrocker on Tuesday, 12.13.11 @ 00:55am

Jim Croce

Posted by classicrocker on Tuesday, 12.13.11 @ 00:57am

I would possible go for a punk act just not sure who yet. Freddie King I plan on voting for him as an influence and the 2nd influence might be either Buck Owens, Frank Stokes, Karlheinz Stockhausen, or Johnny Ray. For non-performers will probably be the same as last time Van Dyke Parks and Jim Steinman.

Posted by Greg F on Tuesday, 12.13.11 @ 01:32am

Anyone thinking about voting for Freddie King as an influence should take a look at 2019 up above.

Posted by Gassman on Tuesday, 12.13.11 @ 01:42am

Oh forgot we already inducted Freddie King. Anyway my influence vote would likely go to Karlheinz Stockhausen and Johnnie Ray.

Posted by Greg F on Tuesday, 12.13.11 @ 01:47am

I'll be voting for Karlheinz Stockhausen and Jacques Brel as my two influences. I'm almost 100% sure.

Posted by Tahvo Parvianen on Tuesday, 12.13.11 @ 05:37am

Since this seems to be pre-pre season, I'll try and share what my ballot would probably look like if I were to cast a vote today:

Performers:

1. Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds
2. The Spencer Davis Group
3. The Pogues
4. Wanda Jackson
5. The Specials
6. ?
7. ?

The remaining performer candidates would probably be from this list, to narrow down my priorities, the more * next to the name, the better chance they have of getting a vote from me next round:

The 13th Floor Elevators*
Bauhaus*
Belle & Sebastian*
Billy Bragg*
Blue Oyster Cult
Cliff Richard and the Shadows
The Cramps (or the Meteors)
The Dells**
Fairport Convention
Jim Croce***
The Misfits* (and all the others Darin mentioned)
The Monks*
The Moonglows**
The Shangri-Las*
The Soft Boys (or Robyn Hitchcock)
The Sonics
Tindersticks
The Tokens**
Tommy James and the Shondells*


Influences:

1. Karlheinz Stockhausen
2. Jacques Brel

I may vote for Johnny "Guitar" Watson again, or maybe Keb' Mo' I may even vote for Johann Sebastian Bach. If there's not sufficient support for any of these, however, I'll stick with Stockhausen and Brel.


Non-Performers:

Two out of these five, most likely:

Art Rupe
Don Kirshner
Glyn Johns*
Sylvia Robinson**
Van Dyke Parks**


Sidemen:

1. Georg Wadenius
2. ?

No idea at this point who else I'd vote for in the sideman category. I have a big list and I'm having trouble narrowing it down.

In addition, I'm not going to weigh in on the Garth Brooks issue. I can see both sides to the argument, but I personally won't be voting for him anytime soon, either as an influence or a performer.

Posted by Tahvo Parvianen on Tuesday, 12.13.11 @ 06:07am

OK, even though I said I wouldn't weigh in on the Garth Brooks-issue, I'm going to anyway.

I see the Garth Brooks debate as part of a larger problem with our Hall, and that problem is with the influence category. There seems to be two sides to this issue, one side views our Hall as more of a "Popular Music" Hall of Fame and considers the term "Rock and Roll" to be an umbrella term for popular music in general. This group considers the influence category to strictly apply to artists who had the bulk of their career prior to the traditionally accepted start of the Rock & Roll era (circa 1954). Essentially how Cleveland's "Early" Influence category works (in theory).

The other group views the influence category as reserved for those artists who aren't "rock & roll" in the traditional sense but had a major impact on music and whose careers were both before or after the start of the rock and roll era.

There are pros and cons with both models, I'll deal with each one at a time, beginning with the "Popular Music Hall" concept.

The advantages of the Popular Music Hall concept is that it doesn't try to separate what's rock and what's not, it is a politically correct, all inclusive Hall (blues, country, electronica, rock, doo-wop, soul, rap, dance, etc) that tries to recognize the most "important" (that's another debate) artists since the mid-1950's. The primary disadvantage with this concept is that it should then be called "The Popular Music Hall of Fame" and not "The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame." In addition, if you're using "Rock & Roll" as a term for popular music, why should you use 1954 as a border between inducting artists as Performers or Influences? Why should Elmore James be put in as an influence but not B.B. King? If we're not strictly dealing with "rock and roll" here than why should we bother using 1954 as a checkpoint? Why not induct everybody since Scott Joplin or Enoch Light as Performers?

The main advantages of the second concept is that it remains true to its name, "Rock and Roll" therefore, only "Rock and Roll" artists are allowed to enter. The disadvantage is obvious, what constitutes rock and roll? Where do you draw the line between blues and blues-rock? Country and country-rock? Folk and folk-rock? For example, we inducted the Kingston Trio and Joan Baez as Influences but Peter, Paul & Mary as Performers, why? Where does this place electronica? Should Kraftwerk and Can be inducted as Performers or influences? What about those artists who blurred the lines between electronica and rock? See what I mean, it's a slippery slope.

I'm done ranting here, the fact of the matter is that neither proposal will satisfy everybody or be perfect (Cleveland hasn't even been able to get this right and screwed up on several occasions, Wanda Jackson and Miles Davis being the most obvious). The only solution I have is to have two influence categories, an "Early Influence" (everything Pre-1954) and an "Outside Influence" (everything not rock and roll post-1954) and keep it strict to inducting rock and roll artists as performers or change the name to the Popular Music Hall of Fame. I mean, think about it, it's called "The Rock & Roll Hall of Fame" but neither "playing rock and roll" or "Fame" are criteria, so a more accurate name would be "The of Hall."

Posted by Tahvo Parvianen on Tuesday, 12.13.11 @ 11:06am

To paraphrase what I was trying to say is that the more you try to over-analyze this, the more of an arbitrary mess you realize the entire enterprise turns into.

Posted by Tahvo Parvianen on Tuesday, 12.13.11 @ 11:14am

Now, to add to my prior post, the main controversy which results in "what's rock and what's not" generally speaking involves music that was around prior to the beginning of the rock era versus music that developed after the initial beginnings of the rock era (this is the reason why some people attack rap's merits in a rock and roll institution).

To put this in plain English, I give you the genres usually excepted as "not being rock and roll"

Blues, Country, Jazz, Classical, Folk, Gospel.

Notice a common theme with all of the above?

--------


Now, the styles almost universally accepted as "rock and roll" are all of the following main styles:

Doo wop, Rockabilly, Early Rock & Roll, R&B, Soul, Motown, Funk, British Invasion, Surf rock, Garage rock/Proto-punk, Psychedelic rock, Reggae (different beginnings, but intertwined enough to be accepted as a form of rock), Southern rock, Swamp rock, Hard rock, Experimental rock, Krautrock, Electronic rock, Progressive rock, Heavy metal (and all its offshoots), Soft rock, Disco (though controversially so), Punk, Psychobilly, Ska, Post-Punk, New Wave, Synthpop, Alternative, Industrial, Shoe-gaze, Roots-rock, Hair Metal, Lo-fi, Grunge, Britpop, Post-Grunge, Nu-Metal, Indie.
And all the "neo" movements (neo-psychedelia, Post-punk revival, etc) as well as all the crossovers (folk-rock, blues-rock, jazz fusion, country rock, etc)

Looking over this list, you can see how silly ignoring rap becomes.

Posted by Tahvo Parvianen on Tuesday, 12.13.11 @ 11:57am

THey all predate Rock?

Also you forgot techno/EDM, that has nothing to do wtih rock and roll.

ALso I disagree with some of those genres, why is rock this massive umbrella genre under which everything must exist? I always thought the popular music hall of fame would be a better idea for a name.

Posted by GFW on Tuesday, 12.13.11 @ 12:31pm

An alphabetical list of influences I'll be considering:

Amos Milburn
Charles Mingus
Charlie Parker
Conway Twitty
Dizzy Gillespie
Eddy Arnold
Irving Berlin
Loretta Lynn
Sarah Vaughn
Tammy Wynette
Thelonious Monk
Tony Bennet

......and if it's his only way of entry, Garth Brooks. Begrudgingly.

Posted by Paul Kagebein on Tuesday, 12.13.11 @ 16:11pm

If there really are a block of voters who feel Garth Brooks is a better influence inductee than a performer, I can accept it, but we certainly have to have a discussion on what constitutes an "Influence" inductee as opposed to a "Performer".

With that being said Paul, he got 6 votes last time, so maybe his candidacy isnt as dead in the water as you think.

Posted by Jim on Tuesday, 12.13.11 @ 16:16pm

"I'll be voting for Karlheinz Stockhausen and Jacques Brel as my two influences. I'm almost 100% sure." -Tahvo

I've voted for that duo several times and might just do it again.

Also, seeing comments from Tahvo and BSLO in support of Bauhaus has me really thinking about moving my immediate support from the Fall back to Bauhaus, who I've voted for several times in the past. I love the Fall and would like to see them inducted, but Bauhaus is a bigger priority to me if there's support there.

Also Tahvo, nice to see Tindersticks in your queue.

Posted by DarinRG on Tuesday, 12.13.11 @ 17:25pm

I might wind up considering Cluster but I'm not sure how support they will get. I'd say they're worth considering since they are very influential on electronic music, ambient music, house, and techno. They're probably just as influential as Kraftwerk, Can, & Neu!.

Posted by Greg F on Wednesday, 12.14.11 @ 05:20am

Greg, I like that you're playing on advanced level. Damn.

Posted by DarinRG on Wednesday, 12.14.11 @ 06:03am

Now, to add to my prior post, the main controversy which results in "what's rock and what's not" generally speaking involves music that was around prior to the beginning of the rock era versus music that developed after the initial beginnings of the rock era (this is the reason why some people attack rap's merits in a rock and roll institution).

To put this in plain English, I give you the genres usually excepted as "not being rock and roll"

Blues, Country, Jazz, Classical, Folk, Gospel.

Notice a common theme with all of the above?

--------

Now, the styles almost universally accepted as "rock and roll" are all of the following main styles:

Doo wop, Rockabilly, Early Rock & Roll, R&B, Soul, Motown, Funk, British Invasion, Surf rock, Garage rock/Proto-punk, Psychedelic rock, Reggae (different beginnings, but intertwined enough to be accepted as a form of rock), Southern rock, Swamp rock, Hard rock, Experimental rock, Krautrock, Electronic rock, Progressive rock, Heavy metal (and all its offshoots), Soft rock, Disco (though controversially so), Punk, Psychobilly, Ska, Post-Punk, New Wave, Synthpop, Alternative, Industrial, Shoe-gaze, Roots-rock, Hair Metal, Lo-fi, Grunge, Britpop, Post-Grunge, Nu-Metal, Indie.
And all the "neo" movements (neo-psychedelia, Post-punk revival, etc) as well as all the crossovers (folk-rock, blues-rock, jazz fusion, country rock, etc)

Looking over this list, you can see how silly ignoring rap becomes.


Posted by Tahvo Parvianen on Tuesday, 12.13.11 @ 11:57am
--------------------------------------------------
It's a nice compendium of genres, but a lot of what you have listed really doesn't need to exist. They can easily be folded into another grouping. It is possible to pare it down rather easily.

early rock & roll? Isn't rockabilly & 50's R&B (specifically jump blues) just that? No need for the term.

Motown is pretty much black pop/soul from the 60's.

Southern rock/Swamp rock - just a matter of geography, & the fact that New Orleans spread a slightly diff. version of the country/blues influence. Memphis - more soul / Orleans - more rockabilly(esque).

Fold Experimental & Progressive into each other - you've got overlap here.

Lo-Fi/Grunge - Same Deal

Krautrock - A mixture of mechanized electronic/industrial w/ American head music/Psych.

Hair Metal = 80's guitar pop.

Try this out: Rockabilly, Doo-Wop, Jump Blues, Soul, Funk, British Invasion, surf rock, folk rock, psychedelic, progressive, heavy metal, Southern rock/Country rock, Disco, Punk, Ska, Hardcore, New Wave (parts 1 - guitar 78-83; part 2 - synthesizer 81-86?), Shoegaze, Grunge, Britpop, Nu-Metal, Emo (for what it's worth), Indie.

Much more simplified.

Posted by Cheesecrop on Wednesday, 12.14.11 @ 06:10am

I'm actually surprised that Neu! hasn't received more support in Projected considering how well they did in the Album Project, but if there were any Krautrock bands I'd be willing to bypass them for it would be Cluster or Popol Vuh.

Posted by DarinRG on Wednesday, 12.14.11 @ 06:23am

I'm not very familar with Cluster or Popol Vuh. I brought up Cluster after I read a little a bit about on Wiki. And as for Popol Vuh I don't anything about them either. I'll probably like them since I like Can.

Posted by Greg F on Wednesday, 12.14.11 @ 18:54pm

Anyone wanna support Estelle Axton as a non-performer. She did co-found Stax records with her brother Jim Stewart. (STewart/AXton = Stax)

Posted by rockstar23 on Wednesday, 12.21.11 @ 15:48pm

I would support Estelle Axton. Another name for a non-performer I want bring up is Neil Bogart the founder of Casablanca Records.

Posted by Greg F on Wednesday, 12.21.11 @ 17:41pm

Merry Christmas. I love and respect all of you for your passion for music. We're a strange breed, we dig a little deeper than most, we bicker over details that most wouldn't know or care about, we disagree a lot, but we're all right when we make a case for something that changed our world and the way that we hear it. And that's what music does.

Cheers and best wishes to all of you.

Posted by DarinRG on Sunday, 12.25.11 @ 05:28am

Alright, so here are the proposed groupings for the next step in the Rock Rankings project. Basically, if an artist began their career after 1955, I considered them Rock Era influences. Doo wop groups that started in the early 50's seem to fit the Rock Era mold, especially since some of their members later ended up as Cleveland Hall inductees. Electric bluesmen (Lightnin' Hopkins, Howlin' Wolf, etc.) seem obviously part of the rock era. John Coltrane/Miles Davis both put out their most important work in the rock era and influenced it greatly.

Anyway, take a look at the list and suggest any changes.

Pre-Rock Influences:

Hank Williams
Jimmie Rodgers
Les Paul
Louis Jordan
Robert Johnson
T-Bone Walker
Jimmy Yancey
Woody Guthrie
Django Reinhardt
Lead Belly
Louis Armstrong
Frank Sinatra
Bill Monroe
Bessie Smith
Willie Dixon
Billie Holliday
Charlie Christian
The Weavers
Mahalia Jackson
Professor Longhair
Big Mama Thornton
Elmore James
Ma Rainey
Bob Wills & His Texas Playboys
The Soul Stirrers
Carter Family
Nat "King" Cole
Ella Fitzgerald
Wynonie Harris
Cab Calloway
Sister Rosetta Tharpe
Dinah Washington
Roy Brown
Ink Spots
The Ravens
The Orioles
Duke Ellington
Sonny Boy Williamson II
Blind Lemon Jefferson
Charles Brown
Jelly Roll Morton
Four Freshmen
Mississippi John Hurt
Mills Brothers
Eddie Lang
Scott Joplin
W.C. Handy
Bing Crosby


Rock-Era Influences:

Howlin' Wolf
Muddy Waters
Big Joe Turner
John Lee Hooker
Screamin' Jay Hawkins
Jimmy Reed
Patsy Cline
Little Willie John
Bobby "Blue" Bland
Nina Simone
Miles Davis
John Coltrane
Buddy Guy
Albert King
The "5" Royales
Kingston Trio
Ravi Shankar
Willie Nelson
Joan Baez
Herbie Hancock
Waylon Jennings
The Dominoes
Esther Phillips
Freddie King
The Crew-Cuts
Fela Kuti
The Clovers
Chuck Willis
Dolly Parton
Johnny Ace
Merle Haggard
Gil Scott-Heron
Lightnin' Hopkins
Buchanan & Goodman
George Jones
Emmylou Harris

Posted by Casper on Thursday, 02.2.12 @ 23:11pm

I just had a thought... what about thomas edison? this guys amazingly important, he invented the gramaphone! without him we probably wouldn't be talking about this now.

Posted by GFW on Monday, 02.20.12 @ 15:57pm

Ok Edison is definitely worth consideration. Also, if we haven't inducted Leon Theremin we should consider him too in the next round.

Posted by Greg F on Tuesday, 02.21.12 @ 22:28pm

also, will we ever get Neu! in?

we only have one song from the shirelles and they're in, but we induct neu's entire catalogue and no love!

Posted by GFW on Wednesday, 02.29.12 @ 16:01pm

I'll plan on voting for Neu! in the next voting cycle. I'm also looking into possibly voting for Poco, Blue Oyster Cult, KMFDM, Wanda Jackson, Carole King, Carly Simon, Blood, Sweat, & Tears, and Joe Cocker. Is there any support for any of these artists?

Posted by Greg F on Sunday, 03.25.12 @ 01:32am

I'll support Neu!, I've just been waiting for some support to line up. I also plan to continue support for Nick Cave and the Fall and I think Bauhaus has waited long enough, so I'll be supporting them until they get in. I'm also saving one spot for an older act that's been overlooked. I've seen a few Brit Invasion names thrown out that I'm considering.

Posted by DarinRG on Sunday, 03.25.12 @ 01:48am

And Bad Brains. They're another band that's well overdue that I'll be supporting.

Posted by DarinRG on Sunday, 03.25.12 @ 01:53am

I may support Nick Cave and The Fall. I'm not familiar with Bauhaus. I would like to see support for Poco. We have Eagles in but not Poco. We can't have Eagles in without Poco. Eagles took what Poco had and had success with it. If that doesn't make a case for Poco I don't know what will.

Posted by Greg F on Sunday, 03.25.12 @ 02:02am

I believe we have British Invasion well covered. We should consider moving on to getting in more New Wave, Electro, Industrial, Punk, Country Rock, Jazz Rock, and Singer-Songwriters in.

Posted by Greg F on Sunday, 03.25.12 @ 02:07am

As far as Industrial/Electro goes I'm all about Suicide, Throbbing Gristle and Cabaret Voltaire as important pioneering acts and I'd be supportive of Skinny Puppy, KMFDM and Ministry as important second wave Industrial acts (bearing in mind that NIN is the only Industrial act that we've inducted). Tubeway Army/Gary Numan or the Human League would also be solid picks for Synthpop/New Wave

Punk acts that I'd be most excited about would be Bad Brains, Richard Hell & the Voidoids and the Slits (who, as I mentioned yesterday in the Black Flag thread, I think are a far superior pick to the Runaways by almost any criteria). I'd also be supportive of the Damned, Misfits and Minor Threat, but less excited about them than the other three I mentioned.

Wire, Gang of Four and Siouxsie & the Banshees are three acts who straddled the line between Punk and Post-punk that I could get behind.

I think we're plenty due for some more Reggae/Ska. The Specials, Desmond Dekker, Peter Tosh and the(English)Beat would be my most likely picks.

As far as Country Rock, that's not really an area of expertise for me beyond what we've already inducted, so I'll just have to hear some suggestions and do some research.

As far as Jazz rock goes, I think that Mahavishnu Orchestra would be a good consideration and I'd be willing to entertain other suggestions (again, not my strongest area).

And however you want to categorize them, I think Hawkwind is a band worthy of consideration.

Posted by DarinRG on Sunday, 03.25.12 @ 02:32am

I know they're not British and thus not part of the British invasion but I think The Turtles deserve serious consideration. I think they're just as worthy as something like The Lovin' Spoonful for instance. Plus a quick glance of the site's new 'Songs that shaped rock' column shows that they have two entries (It Aint Me Babe and Happy Together).

Of those mentioned I will consider voting for Carole King, Nick Cave & the Bad Seeds, Neu, Joe Cocker and Carly Simon. Wanda Jackson will definitely have my vote.

Posted by rockstar23 on Sunday, 03.25.12 @ 05:06am

For Industrial/Electro I would go with either KMFDM or Skinny Puppy. I'll have to look into the early Industrial/Electro bands before I can come to a conclusion on them.
For punk I would go with Bad Brains, Gang of Four, Siouxsie & the Banshees, Richard Hell & the Voidoids, or Minor Threat.
For New Wave I would go with Gary Numan/Tubeway Army or Human League.
For Country Rock I would go with Poco, Lucinda Williams or Ryan Adams.
For Jazz Rock I could go for Mahavishnu Orchestra or Blood, Sweat, & Tears (if you consider them Jazz Rock)
For Reggae/Ska I could go for Peter Tosh, The Specials, The Mighty Mighty Bosstones, or Madness.
For Singer-Songwriters I would go for Carole King or Carly Simon.

Posted by Greg F on Sunday, 03.25.12 @ 05:15am

Lucinda Williams. Hadn't thought about her. Good call.

Also, as far as 90's Electronic acts I'd be very much supportive of Aphex Twin or the Chemical Brothers. I also have a soft spot for Tricky, and I think there's a case to be made for him, but he's already in as a member of Massive Attack, so that one isn't too pressing to me.

And we haven't inducted Wanda Jackson yet? That needs to be fixed ASAP (Performer, not Influence).

Posted by DarinRG on Sunday, 03.25.12 @ 05:33am

Another giant of 90s electronica that I'd support would be Roni Size. He was to Jungle/Drum & Bass what Massive Attack was to Trip Hop, and Drum & Bass was arguably a bigger sub-genre than Trip Hop. (And anyone who says that a guy standing on stage with a laptop can't rock has never seen Roni Size live. He rocked harder than most traditional guitar-bass-drum bands that I've seen.)

Posted by DarinRG on Sunday, 03.25.12 @ 05:48am

I'm going to need to do some more research on electronica. As far as 90's electro I know about The Chemical Brothers, Fatboy Slim, and Moby. Beyond that I don't know much.

Posted by Greg F on Sunday, 03.25.12 @ 06:01am

Yeah, Moby is inexplicably overdue and Fatboy Slim is more than worthy, as well.

Moby and the Chemical Brothers should really be the top priorities in 90s electronica. Both should be in by now.

Posted by DarinRG on Sunday, 03.25.12 @ 06:06am

I'm liking the suggestions on here so far. As far as my ballot next round I'll be saving spots for Wanda Jackson (as a Performer, not Influence), Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds, the Spencer Davis Group and Neu! for sure, and I'm strongly considering Bauhaus, the Specials and Poco at this point as well.

For influence I'll probably vote for Karlheinz Stockhausen and Jacques Brel.

Posted by Tahvo Parvianen on Sunday, 03.25.12 @ 06:19am

Actually, I just saw a yes vote cast for Steve Earle, which reminds me I'll probably strongly consider him as well (Performer, not influence).

Not sure who I'll vote for in the N-P and sideman categories yet.

Posted by Tahvo Parvianen on Sunday, 03.25.12 @ 06:24am

For influence I'll probably vote for Karlheinz Stockhausen and Jacques Brel.

Posted by Tahvo Parvianen on Sunday, 03.25.12 @ 06:19am

Chalk up two votes for each if that's the case.

Posted by DarinRG on Sunday, 03.25.12 @ 06:54am

I shouldn't even have to say that I would vote Neu, Human League and Numan, you guys kno how much I love them.

I'll also support suicide and Carole King. I also intend on voting for Kanye West (he is elgibile, right?)

Posted by GFW on Sunday, 03.25.12 @ 09:10am

Adding to my list: Pulp, Suede, Manic Street Preachers and Happy Mondays are all Britpop/Madchester acts who had enough of an impact for me to support.

Posted by DarinRG on Tuesday, 03.27.12 @ 21:41pm

What about Metal groups? I feel that Pantera, Korn and System of Down would all be worthy. These are the only groups remaining I see worthy until Mastodon.

Also what about first year artists? LCD Soundsystem and Justin Timberlake seem like the only real contenders.

Lastly, the year after (2029) is a huge year for first year inductees. Animal Collective, Arcade Fire, Beyonce and Kanye West are all eligible as 2004 was a great year for new artists. So acts that don't get inducted in 2028 may have to wait until 2030.

For Non-Performers, how about Norman Petty?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Petty

He was Buddy Holly's recording engineer and first producer and manager.

Posted by Gassman on Tuesday, 03.27.12 @ 22:27pm

Even though I'm only a casual fan of Metal, and not super well versed in 90s/00s bands, I do agree that it's a neglected genre. Rammstein is another Metal band that I'd be supportive of.

As far as newly eligibles, I've been mulling over LCD Soundsystem and the Black Keys, but haven't decided yet if I'll go for either right away (if I do, LCD would be most likely).

Posted by DarinRG on Tuesday, 03.27.12 @ 22:36pm

I forgot about The Black Keys, definitely worthy of induction at some point and consideration in their first year of eligibly.

Posted by Gassman on Tuesday, 03.27.12 @ 22:41pm

I will definitely be voting for Pantera in the next cycle.

With us now voting for bands just 10 years after their first release, it would take a lot for me to vote for a first-year artist. I will consider Kanye West next time around, but as much as I like some of the others mentioned, I can't justify them jumping the queue over so many other deserving alternative artists.

Posted by BSLO on Tuesday, 03.27.12 @ 22:53pm

I think that Belle & Sebastian may end up getting the spot on my ballot that I was considering for a newly eligible.

Like I mentioned, I think that my ballot this round will be even more punk/post-punk heavy than usual with Bad Brains, the Fall, Bauhaus and Nick Cave pretty much being locks for me. I know there's a push for B&S and, while I'm supportive of their induction, there's no way I could justify voting for them ahead of any of those four, but they've been waiting around log enough that I wouldn't have any guilt about voting for them over a newly eligible. Still got plenty of time to figure it out, though.

Posted by DarinRG on Tuesday, 03.27.12 @ 23:04pm

BSLO: That is obviously a difference in opinion. I personally see those 4 groups in 2029 as some of the biggest acts of 2000's (along with The White Stripes and Coldplay). I feel they did in 10 years what many groups that we inducted earlier did in 25 years.

Also what does anybody thing about the some of our already inducted in groups solo acts?

Ozzy Osbourne, Iggy Pop, Lou Reed?

Posted by Gassman on Tuesday, 03.27.12 @ 23:26pm

Darin: You mentioned more Britpop getting in. Just curious: Are you familiar with The Auteurs?

Posted by Sam on Wednesday, 03.28.12 @ 03:56am

Sam - I'm familiar with them, but haven't heard much of their stuff. Recommended?

Posted by DarinRG on Wednesday, 03.28.12 @ 04:06am

As far as influences go, how about Irving Berlin?


Belle & Sebastian, LCD Soundsystem, and Pantera have my votes. That's decided.

I have seriously been considering Kanye West, and I am willing to give Neu!, Bad Brains, Happy Mondays, or Siouxsie & the Banshees, a go, but I don't know yet.

I'd really like to push in a big 90's pop artist other than Whitney (you guys know I'm pushing for more pop in The Song Project too). Would you guys consider Mariah Carey to be a worthy induction?

Posted by Paul Kagebein on Wednesday, 03.28.12 @ 11:06am

I also am considering Korn, System of a Down, and Pat Benatar, but other than the three I've committed to in the last comment, my remaining four spots are flexible at the moment.

Posted by Paul Kagebein on Wednesday, 03.28.12 @ 11:09am

I'm committed to trying to help the alternative crowd this time, so I'll say right now that in addition to Pantera, No Doubt and Wanda Jackson, Nick Cave & the Bad Seeds and Bauhaus definitely have my vote.

My last 2 are wide-open, but I'd like to support at least one classic rock-type band. Right now I'm leaning toward either the Spencer Davis Group or Blood, Sweat & Tears, since they seem to have a bit of support with other users. The other spot will probably go to another alt-artist. I'll be willing to help a popular choice get over the top if needed.

In terms of other artists that have been mentioned, Lou Reed is close to being on my ballot, Ozzy, Korn and System of a Down will have my support once Pantera gets in and I'd consider voting for Mariah Carey in the future (I'd rather see her get in over Beyonce getting in immediately).

Iggy Pop is further down my queue, but on my radar. I'll see about trying to fit a punk band on my ballot this time around but I don't think I'll have room. I've been voting for The Offspring for awhile now but I might give them a break this time around. I'd rather see No Doubt and Pantera get in from the 90's first.

I'm an enormous fan of Pat Benatar (I saw her live 4 years ago and it's one of the best performances I've seen). Objectively speaking though, I'd rather see some other genres get some love before I consider her.

I'll consider the Britpop and elctronica artists mentioned for my final spot as well.

Gassman - It's not that I don't think Kanye West, Beyonce, Arcade Fire and Animal Collective are worthy, but aside from Kanye, I don't consider these bands to be in the top group of the decade.

I consider that top group to be Radiohead, the White Stripes, Coldplay, Outkast, Kanye West, Eminem, Green Day, the Red Hot Chili Peppers, U2, Jay-Z and maybe System of a Down (who are next in my metal queue). Beyonce is pretty close, but I don't really consider her to be that much more worthy than someone like Mariah Carey, who we haven't even touched on yet.

With regards to the other 2 (and LCD Soundsystem), I won't pretend to be an expert on indie rock, but based on the research I've done, it seems like Belle & Sebastian, Modest Mouse and Elliott Smith are more pressing snubs from the genre. That said, I'm not an expert on the genre, so if you can convince me otherwise, I'm willing to listen.

When it comes to rock from the 2000's in general, I'd probably put Animal Collective and Arcade Fire behind Queens of the Stone Age and The Strokes as well.

Posted by BSLO on Wednesday, 03.28.12 @ 11:34am

Right now I have decided on Neu!, Wanda Jackson, and Belle & Sebastian as definites for next round. For one slot I want to vote for an industrial act (Suicide, Throbbing Gristle, Ministry or KMFDM), a country rock act (Poco, Steve Earle, Lucinda Williams, or Ryan Adams), an electrona act (Moby, The Chemical Brothers, Fatboy Slim, or Daft Punk), & a ska act (Madness, The Specials, or The Mighty Mighty Bosstones).

Posted by Greg F on Thursday, 03.29.12 @ 02:53am

As mentioned before, I'm firmly committed to Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds, the Commodores, Tommy James and the Shondells, George Michael and the Specials for our next go-round. That only leaves me two slots to fit in some of the areas being bandied about, plus a few areas not being mentioned:

- Industrial: If I vote for anyone in this area, it's going to be Throbbing Gristle, as I've added them on previous ballots. Ministry is a distant second.
- Electronica: Aphex Twin is my highest priority, even if Moby, the Chemical Brothers and Fatboy Slim have more support. Another band rarely bandied about that I'm now considering is the Art of Noise from the 1980s. They had a interesting body of work, and I'd be interested in supporting a push for them as an artist (or, possibly, considering Trevor Horn, who was a co-writer on their early work, as a Non-Performer).
- Alternative: Belle and Sebastian and the Jesus and Mary Chain are battling it out for my interest in this area. LCD Soundsystem are somewhere further down the pike in my mind.
- Female Artists: No interest in joining in on a push for Mariah Carey; if I vote for a 90's R&B artist, it would most likely be Mary J. Blige. I've voted for the Shangri-Las in the past, and have considered Dionne Warwick and the Fugees/Lauryn Hill, so all of them have potential on my ballot.
- Hip-Hop: This may be the first year I don't have a hip-hop act on my ballot, as I'm torn between some of the acts not yet inducted. I'll join in on any concerted effort to get Tribe Called Quest, Snoop Dogg, De La Soul or the Sugarhill Gang in; but, on my own, I'm too torn between choices to really commit right now.
- 80's Rock: I'm surprised that Squeeze hasn't made any traction here. I'd consider them as a contender; but my vote in this area is largely confined to getting George Michael in.

Right now, I'm looking at Sylvia Robinson and Lee Hazelwood for Non-Performers; Stan Freburg and the Last Poets under Influences; and, for the moment, just Carlos Alomar as a Sideman (the man created the riffs for Bowie's "Fame" and "Golden Years," among other work. For that alone, I think he deserves to get in).

That's where my mind is right now. Next year, my vote will most likely be centered on Beyonce, Kanye and (if we can induct George Michael) solo Justin Timberlake, so my next ballot is even tighter in terms of who I'm looking at.

Posted by Ian on Saturday, 03.31.12 @ 13:33pm

"Sam - I'm familiar with them, but haven't heard much of their stuff. Recommended?" - Darin

Sorry, missed that. Their debut album New Wave I'm so far thinking is overhyped by some critics, but I've only given it one listen so far. Perhaps my expectations were too high given that it came within one vote of beating Suede for the Mercury Prize, when it's so far not as good as that or Modern Life Is Rubbish; however, I do kind of enjoy the single Showgirl (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x48V-baPYE8) so I reckon it could grow on me. It's cited by some as being a starting point for Britpop, so if you're into The Beatles, The Kinks and The Smiths you might like it. I might try their second album Now I'm A Cowboy before I go back to New Wave though.

My thoughts:

-Britpop: I agree with you here, Darin. Once you have Suede and Pulp in I think it's properly represented. Count me in for Happy Mondays as well, but I don't really see them as Britpop: They certainly were somewhat of an influence on it but they pre-dated it and were coming from a different musical direction than any of the main players. Similar to The Smiths and The Stone Roses: Played an important role in paving the way for it but not actually part of it (albeit not as influential as those two). I'm not too familiar with Manic Street Preachers except for Suicide Alley, so I'll check them out and explore their worthiness. Which album should I start with?

-Electronica: Chemical Brothers, definitely.

-Alternative/Indie: I agree with Ian on The Jesus & Mary Chain. We eventually got MBV and the Roses, so how did we miss these guys, who were arguably as important? The Specials as well

-Industrial: Suicide, definitely. I'm not a fan but it shouldn't have taken this long. How's about Killing Joke as well? Their debut was pretty cool and groundbreaking stuff, and is often name-dropped. I'll get back to you on Throbbing Gristle.

-Hip-hop: Boogie Down Productions are my number one snub here

-Metal: Make that another vote for Pantera and probably Anthrax, but the latter I won't get to right away

Posted by Sam on Monday, 04.2.12 @ 19:14pm

To reiterate the point, Belle & Sebastian has the support to get in with ease. We had our preferred list going around of candidates we are willing to support and Belle & Sebastian was certainly near the top. It's just that when the voting came around, nobody bothered to give them a slot. I think some voters are a little afraid that they're throwing their votes away on certain indie acts, but a group like Belle & Sebastian clearly has a huge chunk of the voting body in support and are actually capable of being inducted, if not outright LEADING the field altogether.

I'm in agreement with BSLO about Modest Mouse and Elliott Smith being two more of the biggest indie snubs, and certainly more so than acts like The Strokes, Arcade Fire or LCD Soundsystem. There's also obvious classic 70s/80s indie choices such as Wire that are pretty glaring omissions in their own right.

Posted by Casper on Tuesday, 04.3.12 @ 22:09pm

With the recent talk going on about who should be inducted once we get back to the Rock Hall Project, along with who will fellow posters vote for: I suppose I should chime in. Now, I am aware that my ideas for whom should be inducted in the two years we have been doing these Projects are not similar to the majority of my fellow posters. This is likely due to my preferred rock genre being art rock, or prog to its detractors. Yet, despite my age, I am quite familiar with other artists and styles.

In any rate, here are some artists and bands that I would consider for the Projected Class of 2028 and beyond (the infinite). I have categorised these artists and bands into different subgenres and classifications both established and unique.

Adult Alternative: A subgenre from the past 30 or so years that at its best is either innovative non-mainstream gems or at its worst white guys with acoustic guitar contentment. And even that is okay for me. Now, for me the #1 priority for induction would be Dave Matthews. It would certainly please my brothers who are huge fans of Dave Matthews (I like him yet I am not a hardcore DMB fan). Sheryl Crow is also right up there, and I am stunned we have not seriously considered here as of yet. I am also open to including Neneh Cherry, Jamiriquai, Marroon 5, Semisonic, Yeah Yeah Yeahs and even David Gray. Again, the realm of Adult Alternative means different things to different people. Some feedback would be welcomed.

Hip-Hop/R&B: At the top of my list would be Mary J. Blige, easily one of the greatest singers and entertainers out there today. Mariah Carey is also someone I could vouch for. I think De La Soul should be considered without significant doubts. Also on my quere include Nas, A Tribe Called Quest, Snoop Dogg and Ludacris on the Hip-Hop front. On the R&B front, Luther Vandross, Lionel Richie, Faith Evans, Lauryn Hill and The Chi-Lites are on my quere. Heck, I will even throw in Simply Red as a wild card.

Industrial: Rammstein and Ministry should be considered and be inducted quite soon. I also think Throbbing Gristle would be a wise left-field choice. So too would Skinny Puppy be of interest.

Jazz fusion: The one act that should be in representing Jazz Fusion without question is Weather Report. Clearly one of the most innovative instrumental bands to have ever existed. There is not much else to consider.

Punk: Bad Brains, Richard Hell, Glenn Danzig, The Slits, Bikini Kill, Gang Of Four and Fugazi are my most immediate considerations in punk. I will say that since punk is the one subgenre that has the most amount of artists, these artists I listed are but a few I am considering at the moment.

Country Rock: I agree with the consensus building for Steve Earle. I would also include Poco, Lucinda Williams and perhaps even Dan Fogelberg. Do not laugh at the Fogelberg idea; there was some valid worth in his albums.

Electronica: The Chemical Brothers are obvious choices. So too is Moby, Aphex Twin, and if we are to go further back, Jean Michel Jarre.

Alternative: Belle and Sebastien, obviously. Also quite obvious for me would include The Jesus and Mary Chain, Sarah McLachlan, Marillion (more alternative than art rock, IMO), Gin Blossoms, Meat Puppets and even Slipknot. Wire is also on my list. Once again, Alternative all depends on what one thinks is alternative. Feedback is more than welcome.

Metal: I will join others in seeking Pantera for an eventual induction. I also include Anthrax, though not as immediate for me.

80's pop: I am okay with considering George Michael, as he is a very talented and innovative singer-songwriter. I think Pat Benatar is worthy of induction. I also consider Phil Collins on his own accord within this subgenre. THere are others, though I have gone on quite a bit. There is one more subgenre to discuss, however.

Art Rock: we need more Art rock. Last year, I had on my ballot Alan Parsons and Eric Woolfson, The Alan Parsons Project. I intend to have Parsons and Woolfson on my ballot again this 2028 Class. Also to be considered down the road: Kansas, Gentle Giant, Peter Hamill, 10cc, Be Bop Deluxe, Focus, The Move, Supertramp, Dream Theater, amongst others.

Well, there you are then. If this is problematic, let me know. I will have more to discuss later on.

Be safe and enjoy your holiday with loved ones,

Lax29

Posted by Lax29 on Thursday, 04.5.12 @ 22:23pm

Happy Passover and Easter to aal who observe and celebrate!

I suppose now might be a good time for me to show fellow posters what my ballot for the Projected Class of 2028 might look like once this project recommences in September. Contrary to some opinions, my ballot does not entirely consist of artists that I have personal preference over. indeed, some are based on the trends and ideas presented by other like-minded posters.

Belle and Sebastien
Wanda Jackson
Ozzy Osbourne
Wire
Peter Tosh
Neu!
Alan Parsons/Eric Woolfson/The Alan Parsons Project

Non-Performers

Sylvia Robinson
Hipgnosis

Influences

Karlheinz Stockhausen
Bill Withers

Sidemen

Wayne Shorter
Nathan East

Now, this is subject to change during the course of the voting. I have usually tended to get an indication of how fellow posters are choosing for induction, and thus retool and refine my ideas. It will be slightly easier if the Revisited/Projected Rock Hall Project had inductions every 4 or so months as opposed to one per year. I see the reasoning for one per year; yet maybe it could be changed.

In any respect, let me know when the time is available what you all think about this potential ballot. Perhaps a primary compendium of ballots can be drawn up for reference and trend forcasting.

Once again, Happy Passover and Easter!,

Lax29

Posted by Lax29 on Saturday, 04.7.12 @ 20:22pm

I think Bill Withers would be a better fit in the performer category.

Anyway my ballet will likely look like this.

Performer:

Wanda Jackson
Belle & Sebastian
Neu!
Poco
Throbbing Gristle
The Specials

Non-Performer:

Norman Petty
Richard Perry

Influence:

Johnnie Ray
Karlheinz Stockhausen

Sidemen:

Cornell Dupree
Bob Babbitt

Posted by Greg F on Monday, 04.16.12 @ 15:36pm

When does voting start?

Posted by Sam on Thursday, 04.19.12 @ 18:21pm

Voting will start once the nominees for the real hall of fame are announced in September.

Posted by Gassman on Thursday, 04.19.12 @ 18:36pm

yo, anyone feel like making a skype chat? just got the idea out of the blue.

Posted by GFW on Saturday, 04.21.12 @ 18:29pm

I'm pro Wanda Jackson as a performer. I think we should all work on getting her inducted via the main route rather than the Influences category.

Posted by Casper on Sunday, 04.22.12 @ 21:58pm

One pattern I've noticed is that the Hall of Fame tends to induct at least one "classic rock" musician each year. Do some research on the classes, and you'll notice that they've done so every year since 1988. At least they've shown some respect for the "rock revolution".

Posted by Lucario on Sunday, 04.22.12 @ 23:43pm

Gonna bring up three incredibly important people in the realms of music.

Thomas Edison

Simply put, this guy is the most important non performer in history. He invented the record player and was the biggest pioneer of sound recording. Without him, none of us would be here.

Fritz Pfleumer - The inventor of Magnetic Tape, the standard for sound recording in studios until digital came along, as well as making the cassette possible.

Jimmy Saville - Not as important as the other two but still hugely important. He is the first recognized DJ in the world, he started the trend of playing records in a club in 1943He was a DJ on Radio Luxembourg, which was one of the few sources for rock'n'roll in 50's and early 60's Britain before the advent of pirate radio and, in 1967, Radio 1, which Saville was also a DJ on. His show Jimmy Savile's Old Record Club was the only program n which old top 10's were played. He was also the face of Top Of The pops, the longest running and most important music show in Britain which ran from 1964 till 2006, he presented it for the first 20 years of its existence and was also present at the last version.

I think all three should be inducted, tell me what you think.

Posted by GFW on Thursday, 05.17.12 @ 13:41pm

I'm going to agree with you, GFW. Since my Non-Performers are still up in air, I might just go for two of the three. Have you thought about nominating them in the blind ballot Hall?

Posted by Tahvo Parvianen on Thursday, 05.17.12 @ 15:12pm

I only thought to do it now, I think it's too late.

Posted by GFW on Thursday, 05.17.12 @ 16:11pm

Well there's always next round.

Posted by Tahvo Parvianen on Thursday, 05.17.12 @ 16:26pm

What does everybody here think about Fanny?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanny_(band)

Posted by Rick Vendl II on Thursday, 05.17.12 @ 20:15pm

Rock and Roll Hall of Fame voting is a joke. Someone please tell me how Chicago is not in the Hall of Fame. Take a look at the list of who's in. I can't tell you how many don't belong and how many others should be in the line behind them. Will never go there until Chicago is in. How about Rush??

Posted by Swede on Saturday, 06.9.12 @ 23:54pm

Since we are heading into the Revisited/Projected Rock Hall Project Class of 2028 in the next few weeks, if not sooner; I would suggest we get an idea of whom will be inducted in a fashion similar to last year. That is to say, we list which Performers, Non-Performers, Influenes and/or Sidemen are on our quere for 2028. Then, we can total up the amount of votes see who is in frontrunner status. Something to consider while waiting for the next induction cycle in the crown jewel of the website.

Happy to answer quetions and concerns,

Lax29

Posted by Lax29 on Thursday, 06.21.12 @ 21:40pm

When are we doing our revision of our top artists list?

also i'll give you some info on who i'm supporting: Like i did in the email rnrhof i'll be pushing Thomas Edison, Jimmy Saville and Fritz Pfleumer.

As far as artists it'll be more of the usual, Human League, Gary Numan and Neu! And for new artists I'll more than likely support LCD Soundsystem.

Posted by GFW on Friday, 06.22.12 @ 11:16am

Lax29, I heard we won't be doing our annual voting until September starts OR when the nominee list is revealed. I prefer the former since it will allow us to vote without being affected by the latest Cleveland list.

I do agree with your idea though and was planning to do it this August, but we could get started now. Unlike last time, however, you won't be adding your name to artists you WOULD support. Rather, it will be to artists you WILL support which means the list should be fairly small and nobody can list themselves to more than seven names. You can move your support around, however, just no attaching your username to more than 7 performers or 2 names in the other categories.


I'll get it started.

Performers:


Belle & Sebastian - Casper
Neu! - Casper
Nick Cave & The Bad Seeds - Casper
Suicide - Casper


Influences:

Wanda Jackson - Casper (she still seems to fit this category better than Performer in my eyes. Most of her career spans outside the realm of rock, so I see her influencing rock from the outside in the same way that somebody like Fela Kuti managed to do)

Posted by Casper on Friday, 06.22.12 @ 14:57pm

Well, a week has passed. Besides Casper, no one else has taken up my offer of getting an idea for who will be induted in the Revisited/Projected Rock Hall Project Class of 2028. I suppose we can now add myself to the list of whom I will l ikely support for 2028. Listed herein is my likely ballot to be posted in September or thereabouts. You have my assurance that this does not solely rely on personal preferences.

Performers

Belle and Sebastien
Wanda Jackson
Peter Tosh
Alan Parsons/Eric Woolfson/The Alan Parsons Project
Muse
Lou Reed
Pat Benatar

Non-Performers

Hipgnosis
Godley and Creme

Influences

Bill Withers
Sun Ra

Sidemen

Wayne Shorter
Pino Palladino

It is somewhat similar to what I posited in April. Though there are a few changes here and there. In any matter, this is what I am putting on my ballot now. I doubt it will change in the next three months. Let me know what you think of this preliminary ballot.

Guess the connection between the two Non-Performing entities,

Lax29

Posted by Lax29 on Saturday, 06.30.12 @ 22:22pm

If it's about who I WILL DEFINITELY vote for:

-Suicide
-The Chemical Brothers

Non-performer:

Stephen Street, I guess

Early Influence:

Wanda Jackson

Posted by Sam on Thursday, 07.12.12 @ 18:42pm

There are two artists that I'm really gunning for this election and they are Bad Brains and Wanda Jackson.

Bad Brains are considered pioneers of hardcore punk, whom were innovative in their melding of other genres, such as reggae, funk, heavy metal, soul, & even some hip hop. They played faster and more emphatically than their peers and featured more complex rhythms than the casual hardcore band. Beastie Boys, Minor Threat, and Henry Rollins of Black Flag have all cited Bad Brains as a major influence. They were also the first all African-American punk band. Based on innovation and influence, Bad Brains seems like a must.

Wanda Jackson is considered the Queen or First Lady of Rockabilly. The King of Rockabilly? Carl Perkins, an artist whom we inducted in the performer category. If Perkins is a performer, so should Jackson. True, her later career became more country and gospel, but her pioneering work came as a rock and roll artist, so it is as a performer where she should be inducted. That's my take on the argument anyway. It's been far too long for her not to get into our hall of fame. She's very deserving.

Those are the two artists that I'm definitely standing by. I'm going to need more time to consider other worthy artists. I'll be looking into which categories of rock I think has deserving artists still waiting on the outside, such as arena rock, heavy metal, R&B, etc. I'll probably be voting for the solo efforts of Ozzy Osbourne as well, as I feel that it is deserving on its own right. I think we've just hit the tip of the iceberg for punk artists. After Bad Brains, Minor Threat, the Damned, Misfits, the Sonics, and even the Offspring should all be included.

Posted by Steve Z on Monday, 07.16.12 @ 12:16pm

There are two artists that I'm really gunning for this election and they are Bad Brains and Wanda Jackson.

Bad Brains are considered pioneers of hardcore punk, whom were innovative in their melding of other genres, such as reggae, funk, heavy metal, soul, & even some hip hop. They played faster and more emphatically than their peers and featured more complex rhythms than the casual hardcore band. Beastie Boys, Minor Threat, and Henry Rollins of Black Flag have all cited Bad Brains as a major influence. They were also the first all African-American punk band. Based on innovation and influence, Bad Brains seems like a must.

Wanda Jackson is considered the Queen or First Lady of Rockabilly. The King of Rockabilly? Carl Perkins, an artist whom we inducted in the performer category. If Perkins is a performer, so should Jackson. True, her later career became more country and gospel, but her pioneering work came as a rock and roll artist, so it is as a performer where she should be inducted. That's my take on the argument anyway. It's been far too long for her not to get into our hall of fame. She's very deserving.

Those are the two artists that I'm definitely standing by. I'm going to need more time to consider other worthy artists. I'll be looking into which categories of rock I think has deserving artists still waiting on the outside, such as arena rock, heavy metal, R&B, etc. I'll probably be voting for the solo efforts of Ozzy Osbourne as well, as I feel that it is deserving on its own right. I think we've just hit the tip of the iceberg for punk artists. After Bad Brains, Minor Threat, the Damned, Misfits, the Sonics, and even the Offspring should all be included.

Posted by Steve Z on Monday, 07.16.12 @ 12:16pm

Whoops, Sorry for the double post.

Posted by Steve Z on Monday, 07.16.12 @ 12:16pm

I'll be voting for the Spencer Davis Group, Neu!, Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds, Bauhaus and Wanda Jackson as Performers for sure.

That's already 5 out of 7, I still haven't decided the final two. For influences, I'm going with Jacques Brel and Karlheinz Stockhausen. As far as non-performers and sidemen go, I don't really have any pet projects in the air, I'll see what others think and try to help out.

Posted by Tahvo Parvianen on Monday, 07.16.12 @ 13:06pm

I'll definitely be voting for Pantera, No Doubt, Wanda Jackson, Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds and Bauhaus.

My last 2 spots are up in the air, but they will likely go to a classic rock band and a rap/R&B artist.

Posted by BSLO on Monday, 07.16.12 @ 15:24pm

Right now I have Bauhaus, Nick Cave & the Bad Seeds, Suicide and Neu! as locks. Wanda Jackson, the Specials and Bad Brains are most likely to fill out my final three spots.

Posted by DarinRG on Monday, 07.16.12 @ 17:27pm

Nothing's ever certain for me anymore, but I'm considering quite a few names.

I feel in all of our interactive portions of our website that we've given the shaft to post 1980s R&B. Missy Elliot seems to be the only exception here, which confuses me to be honest. Of course, being a hall of fame act and having a hall of fame song are two different things, (sorry, Boyz II Men) so I don't think we need TOO many acts to flesh things out. So I'm giving a spot to an R&B act, but I'm unsure if I'll vote for TLC, R. Kelly or Mary J. Blige (although she's more hip-hop). I'd say Mary J. Blige has had the most influence and a fair amount of innovation, but I feel that R. Kelly has a stronger body of work and is much more of a musical talent. TLC, on the other hand, deserve credit for their fusion of R&B and hip hop, which has proven influential, but are hurt by the fact that there's not much work from them and didn't have a very long career (Although that ended up not really being a fault of their own). There's also Mariah Carey, but I think people here look at her more like a black Celine Dion than an R&B artist.

I'm giving my next spot to Garth Brooks. We've all had this argument. We've all made our points. I'm still standing behind him.

Next is the obligatory "classic rock" spot. IMO, we only need a few artists left. I'll probably go for Tommy James and the Shondells, but after that I'm hard pressed to find anyone else left. I've been going back and forth on The Guess Who and Grand Funk Railroad, especially since we inducted Steppenwolf, who I'm still not sold on.

Then I'm thinking about the Commodores. There's always been a groundswell of support for them, and I think there's a spot for them this year, especially since there's no way anyone would ever vote for Lionel Richie's solo career.

It looks like I'll finally get around to Pantera this year too, so I'm happy. I can't see us moving to modern metal (or modern hard rock, for that matter) without acknowledging them.

The 6th and 7th spots are more difficult for me, as there are three artists I'm considering. George Michael and the Offspring are my safe choices for this spot, as both have been very close to induction. But I've been listening to Steve Z's campaigning for Bad Brains and I can't help but throw him and a bone, not to mention I feel it would help the Offspring become a more concensus candidate. In other words, its a crapshoot at this point.

So at this point, my votes would look like:

R. Kelly/TLC/Mary J. Blige
Tommy James and The Shondells
Garth Brooks
The Commodores
Pantera
George Michael
The Offspring/Bad Brains

Posted by Jim on Tuesday, 07.17.12 @ 03:31am

The Specials! How could I forget? They're likely my 6th spot then.

Posted by Tahvo Parvianen on Tuesday, 07.17.12 @ 05:18am

I'm not sure yet. Neu! and Numan are obviously gonna get my vote, LCD Soundsystem is also likely. But after that I dunno.

Posted by GFW on Tuesday, 07.17.12 @ 14:13pm

Where we stand...



Performers:

Neu! - 4 (Casper, Tahvo, DarinRG, GFW)
Nick Cave & The Bad Seeds - 4 (Casper, Tahvo, BSLO, DarinRG)
Wanda Jackson - 4 (Lax29, Steve Z, Tahvo, BSLO)
Bauhaus - 3 (Tahvo, BSLO, DarinRG)
Belle & Sebastian - 2 (Casper, Lax29)
Lou Reed - 2 (Casper, Lax29)
Pantera - 2 (BSLO, Jim)
Suicide - 2 (Casper, DarinRG)

Peter Tosh - Lax29
The Alan Parsons Project - Lax29
Muse - Lax29
Pat Benatar - Lax29
Suede - Sam
The Chemical Brothers - Sam
Bad Brains - Steve Z
Spencer Davis Group - Tahvo
No Doubt - BSLO
Tommy James and the Shondells - Jim
Garth Brooks - Jim
The Commodores - Jim
George Michael - Jim
The Specials - Tahvo
Gary Numan - GFW
LCD Soundsystem - GFW



Non-Performers:

Hipgnosis - Lax29
Godley and Creme - Lax29
Stephen Street - Sam


Influences:

Wanda Jackson - 2 (Casper, Sam)
Bill Withers - Lax29
Sun Ra - Lax29
Jacques Brel - Tahvo
Karlheinz Stockhausen - Tahvo


Sidemen:

Wayne Shorter - Lax29
Pino Palladino - Lax29

Posted by Casper on Friday, 07.20.12 @ 04:57am

Ok, if we're going to do this:

Performers:

Belle and Sebastian
Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds
The Commodores
Tommy James and the Shondells
George Michael
The Specials
+ 1 TBD

Non-Performers:

Lee Hazlewood
Sylvia Robinson

Influences:

Jacques Brel
The Last Poets

Sidemen:

Carlos Alomar
& 1 TBD (maybe)

Posted by Ian on Friday, 07.20.12 @ 13:22pm

I think I'll vote for Philip Paul in the sidemen category. I vouched and managed to get him inducted in the Blind Ballot Hall of Fame so I'll try here too. Not decided on my second sideman.

And you can add my name to Sylvia Robinson for Non-Performer.

Posted by Tahvo Parvianen on Friday, 07.20.12 @ 15:34pm

Keep in mind mine's just tentative; mine could look completely by the time I actually vote. In fact there are other people I'm seriously considering right now.

Posted by Sam on Sunday, 07.22.12 @ 19:20pm

Ooh, for non performers add my name to Thomas Edison and Fritz Pfleumer!

Posted by GFW on Friday, 07.27.12 @ 07:40am

Sylvia Robbinson NEEDS to be inducted as a non performer. This women is one of the most important record producers in history for her work in disco and rap. Robinson is credited as the mother of modern hip-hop, and an important influence on the formation of disco.


1. founder/CEO of the hip hop label Sugar Hill Records as well as Bon Ami Records which both housed early influences for rap.

2. She is credited as the driving force behind two landmark singles in rap. The first was "Rapper's Delight" by the Sugarhill Gang, which was the first rap song to be released by a hip hop act, The second was "The Message" by Grandmaster Flash & the Furious Five which is credited as the rap song that brought socially conscious lyrics into hip hop.

3. "Pillow Talk" has been called an early example of prototypical disco music and went on to sell two million copies. The vocals are replete with moaning and heavy breathing, predating Donna Summer's orgasmic moans on "Love to Love You Baby". The drumming rhythm would reappear in 1985 on Kate Bush's "Running Up that Hill", then again in 1987 on Fleetwood Mac's "Big Love".

4. She invented "sampling" which revolutionized the music industry


more important singles to her name: Love is strange,singing background on Ike & Tina Turner's hit single, "It's Gonna Work Out Fine".

Posted by Mikhail on Sunday, 08.5.12 @ 03:43am

Still thinking, but count me in for Suicide as well. I've been going back and forth, but this feels like one of those cases where the debut album alone is enough.

Posted by Sam on Tuesday, 08.14.12 @ 16:11pm

It's not elegant, but after reading the AV Club's Primer on Motown, I've decided to supplement my endorsement of The Commodores with a vote for Tammi Terrell as a Sideman. I can't see her limited body of work (tragically cut short as it was) getting her in as a Performer; but her duets with Marvin Gaye hold up enough for consideration in the other category.

Thoughts?

Posted by Ian on Thursday, 08.16.12 @ 18:55pm

Update on who voters are committing to...

Performers:

Nick Cave & The Bad Seeds - 5 (Casper, Tahvo, BSLO, DarinRG, Ian)

Neu! - 4 (Casper, Tahvo, DarinRG, GFW)
Wanda Jackson - 4 (Lax29, Steve Z, Tahvo, BSLO)

Bauhaus - 3 (Tahvo, BSLO, DarinRG)
Belle & Sebastian - 3 (Casper, Lax29, Ian)
Suicide - 3 (Casper, DarinRG, Sam)

The Commodores - 2 (Jim, Ian)
George Michael - 2 (Jim, Ian)
Lou Reed - 2 (Casper, Lax29)
Pantera - 2 (BSLO, Jim)
The Specials - 2 (Tahvo, Ian)
Tommy James and the Shondells - 2 (Jim, Ian)

Peter Tosh - Lax29
The Alan Parsons Project - Lax29
Muse - Lax29
Pat Benatar - Lax29
Suede - Sam
The Chemical Brothers - Sam
Bad Brains - Steve Z
Spencer Davis Group - Tahvo
No Doubt - BSLO
Garth Brooks - Jim
Gary Numan - GFW
LCD Soundsystem - GFW



Non-Performers:

Sylvia Robinson - 3 (Mikhail, Tahvo, Ian)

Fritz Pfleumer - GFW
Godley and Creme - Lax29
Hipgnosis - Lax29
Lee Hazlewood - Ian
Stephen Street - Sam
Thomas Edison - GFW



Influences:

Jacques Brel - 2 (Tahvo, Ian)
Wanda Jackson - 2 (Casper, Sam)

Bill Withers - Lax29
Karlheinz Stockhausen - Tahvo
The Last Poets - Ian
Sun Ra - Lax29




Sidemen:

Carlos Alomar - Ian
Phillip Paul - Tahvo
Pino Palladino - Lax29
Tammi Terrell - Ian
Wayne Shorter - Lax29

Posted by Casper on Friday, 08.24.12 @ 04:52am

Influences:

Jacques Brel - 2 (Tahvo, Ian)
Wanda Jackson - 2 (Casper, Sam)

Bill Withers - Lax29
Karlheinz Stockhausen - Tahvo
The Last Poets - Ian
Sun Ra - Lax29
------------------------------------------------

Next update you can put me down as solid for Brel and Stockhausen. They're both locks for me.

Posted by DarinRG on Saturday, 08.25.12 @ 22:17pm

I will be voting for both of those as well, DarinRG. I'm going to support Wanda Jackson as a performer, mostly because if she narrowly gets in via that category, it will likely prevent some populist artist like George Michael or, god forbid, Garth Brooks from getting in.

Posted by Casper on Thursday, 08.30.12 @ 06:15am

I have been participating around here for most of the last year, but this will be my first Rock Hall Projected vote. A few thoughts:

I don't really take to the idea that certain "genres" have to have certain number in the hall. Nor do I understand the thought that a genre can only be represented once per voting cycle. The most deserving artists should go in regardless.

One "genre" that I don't hear mentioned much is just a little one called popular music. You know, the music that actually influences incoming teenagers because it's what they actually hear. I'm not talking about bubble gum pop, just music that the average person has actually heard. Having a little success should not be considered a negative. Some artists I'm talking about:

America
Bill Withers (IMO, he is not an influence, he is a full fledged artist)
Billy Idol
Cyndi Lauper
DIana Ross
Foreigner
The Guess Who
Herman's Hermits
Huey Lewis & the News
JIm Croce
Johnny Mathis
Johnny Rivers
Kid Rock
Lionel Richie
Little River Band
Live
Liz Phair
Midnight Oil
Ozzy Osbourne
Pat Benatar
Paul Revere & the Raiders
Pet Shop Boys
Phil Collins
REO Speedwagon
Ringo Starr
Simple Minds
Steve Winwood
Sting
Styx
Supertramp
Three Dog Night
Tommy James & the Shondells

Some are more deserving than others, but they all deserve at least some attention.

Also I think there are some British acts that were huge in the UK but not so much in America that should not be ignored such as:
Badfinger
Cliff Richard/The Shadows
Hawkwind
Madness
Slade
Sweet
Uriah Heep
Wishbone Ash

As of now I would lean towards nominating:
Sweet
Jim Croce
Midnight Oil

as for other categories I think sidemen considerations should include Rick Derringer, Slash, Clarence Clemons, and Adrian Belew.

non-performers to be considered:Jon Landau, Lester Bangs, Danny Elfman, and Perry Ferrell.

Posted by jtrichey on Saturday, 09.1.12 @ 17:33pm

I don't get where this idea that we don't induct popular artists comes from, we're hardly Hipster central.

Posted by GFW on Sunday, 09.2.12 @ 05:46am

You're right in that it is not completely ignored, and I didn't mean to imply that it was. There are definitely some posters that do completely ignore it though, and through them some odd bands are getting in ahead of more obvious artists that had success. In my opinion only, I believe there are some that count success as a black mark.

Posted by jtrichey on Sunday, 09.2.12 @ 23:05pm

Does any fellow poster know when we will be voting on the Revisited/Projected rock Hall Project Class of 2028, at least for this year? Tomorrow is the NomCom meeting of the actual Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. If we follow last year's path, we likely vote for the 2028 class shortly afterwards. If any poster knows these queries, post them as soom as can be.

Hoping I did not ask a stupid question,

Lax29

Posted by Lax29 on Sunday, 09.9.12 @ 22:07pm

We will probably do it after the nominees for the real rock hall have been announced just like last year.

Posted by Greg F on Sunday, 09.9.12 @ 22:17pm

What I will be voting for.

Wanda Jackson
Suicide
The Specials
Neu!
Belle & Sebastian
The Chemical Brothers

Non-Performers:

Neil Bogart
Richard Perry

Influences:

Jacques Brel
Karlheinz Stockhausen

Sidemen:

Bob Babbitt
Cornell Dupree

Posted by Greg F on Sunday, 09.9.12 @ 22:26pm

My seventh selection would be either Poco or Lucinda Williams. It will definitely be a country rock act for sure.

Posted by Greg F on Sunday, 09.9.12 @ 22:29pm

I'm not decided on my perofrmers, but for non performer i'm definitely picking Thomas Edison and Fritz Pfleumer.

Posted by GFW on Monday, 09.10.12 @ 13:13pm

Do people put forth nominees for this, or does everyone just name 7 artists?

Posted by jtrichey on Monday, 09.10.12 @ 23:55pm

jtrichey, you simply vote for 7 Performers and 2 each for the other categories. However, a lot of us have been confirming the choices that we WILL vote for in order to help certain candidacies and to avoid our ballots being filled with choices that nobody else plans to throw a vote.


Update on who voters are committing to...

Performers:

Neu! - 5 (Casper, Tahvo, DarinRG, GFW, Greg F)
Nick Cave & The Bad Seeds - 5 (Casper, Tahvo, BSLO, DarinRG, Ian)
Wanda Jackson - 5 (Lax29, Steve Z, Tahvo, BSLO, Greg F)

Belle & Sebastian - 4 (Casper, Lax29, Ian, Greg F)
Suicide - 4 (Casper, DarinRG, Sam, Greg F)

Bauhaus - 3 (Tahvo, BSLO, DarinRG)
The Specials - 3 (Tahvo, Ian, Greg F)

The Chemical Brothers - 2 (Sam, Greg F)
The Commodores - 2 (Jim, Ian)
George Michael - 2 (Jim, Ian)
Lou Reed - 2 (Casper, Lax29)
Pantera - 2 (BSLO, Jim)
Tommy James and the Shondells - 2 (Jim, Ian)

Peter Tosh - Lax29
The Alan Parsons Project - Lax29
Muse - Lax29
Pat Benatar - Lax29
Suede - Sam
Bad Brains - Steve Z
Spencer Davis Group - Tahvo
No Doubt - BSLO
Garth Brooks - Jim
Gary Numan - GFW
LCD Soundsystem - GFW



Non-Performers:

Sylvia Robinson - 3 (Mikhail, Tahvo, Ian)

Fritz Pfleumer - GFW
Godley and Creme - Lax29
Hipgnosis - Lax29
Lee Hazlewood - Ian
Stephen Street - Sam
Thomas Edison - GFW
Neil Bogart - Greg F
Richard Perry - Greg F


Influences:

Jacques Brel - 4 (Tahvo, Ian, Casper, DarinRG, Greg F)
Karlheinz Stockhausen - 4 (Tahvo, Casper, DarinRG, Greg F)


Wanda Jackson - Sam
Bill Withers - Lax29
The Last Poets - Ian
Sun Ra - Lax29




Sidemen:

Carlos Alomar - Ian
Bob Babbitt - Greg F
Cornell Dupree - Greg F
Phillip Paul - Tahvo
Pino Palladino - Lax29
Tammi Terrell - Ian
Wayne Shorter - Lax29

Posted by Casper on Wednesday, 09.12.12 @ 17:49pm

Forgot to include my name for Wanda Jackson as a Performer. So she's now our next election's front-runner with six confirmed supporters.

Posted by Casper on Wednesday, 09.12.12 @ 17:50pm

Right now I have Bauhaus, Nick Cave & the Bad Seeds, Suicide and Neu! as locks. Wanda Jackson, the Specials and Bad Brains are most likely to fill out my final three spots.

Posted by DarinRG on Monday, 07.16.12 @ 17:27pm

At this point I'm considering the Specials to be a lock and Wanda Jackson close to it. I'm a big supporter of Bad Brains (and I still think there's a good chance that Cleveland could beat us to them), but if I don't see more support I may throw that vote to the Chemical Brothers, Lou Reed or Belle & Sebastian while they do have decent support.

Going forward I'd also like to strongly advocate for Throbbing Gristle, Wire, Siouxsie & the Banshees, the Fall and Gang of Four (and I know that Siouxsie and the Fall have both had strong years of support in the past), but that clearly won't be happening this year.

Posted by DarinRG on Wednesday, 09.12.12 @ 18:11pm

You can add my name to Fritz Pfleumer for N-P and Jack Nitzsche for sideman.

Still don't know my seventh Performer pick, pretty much all the names Darin mentioned that I haven't yet plus are a few others are on my immediate radar.

I'd also like to see us get the Dells and the Moonglows in at some point, though I probably won't have room for either this round (maybe the Moonglows).

Posted by Tahvo Parvianen on Thursday, 09.13.12 @ 07:48am

Is there no other support for LCD? I'd like to induct at least one new act.

Also i'm gonna be shocked if thms edison isn't first in, he's litterally the most impotant non performer to ever live.

Posted by GFW on Thursday, 09.13.12 @ 11:08am

jtrichey, you simply vote for 7 Performers and 2 each for the other categories. However, a lot of us have been confirming the choices that we WILL vote for in order to help certain candidacies and to avoid our ballots being filled with choices that nobody else plans to throw a vote.
-----------------------------------------
In that case it looks nearly decided already. I mean no offense, but if it turns out this way this would make a fairly boring party in Cleveland for the induction ceremony.

Of those that have gotten some support, I would support The Chemical Brothers and Tommy James & the Shondells. Muse and Pat Benatar would be nice as well.

I really think there should be more consideration for

Bill Withers (performer all the way)
Billy Idol
Cyndi Lauper
Jim Croce
Midnight Oil
Ozzy Osbourne's solo work
Sweet
Slade
Wishbone Ash

For other categories please take a look at Jon Landau or Lester Bangs for non-performers and Rick Deringer and Clarence Clemons as sidemen.

I happen to think we have kind of maxed out the influence category for the most part.

Posted by jtrichey on Thursday, 09.13.12 @ 23:54pm

I don't understand what happened to all the support for Jim Croce. A year ago there was a list of at least 6 or 7 people who said they would consider voting for him. If I bother with this at all he will be on my ballot for sure. Looks like it's already been decided though.

Posted by classicrocker on Friday, 09.14.12 @ 00:37am

Wow, I totally forgot about Jim Croce, he'll be on my ballot for sure.

Also, regarding the support, I wouldn't say things are decided yet since about half our regular voters haven't said who they'll support yet.

Posted by Tahvo Parvianen on Friday, 09.14.12 @ 03:18am

Eh, nothing's been decided yet. Wanda Jackson has six supporters, but the less have rest than that. It looks like about ten users here gave their Performer picks, but not all of them have used up all their ballot spaces and I'd expect that we'll have at least twenty users in our annual election. In other words, Wanda Jackson is probably the only one of those Performers that I'd willingly bet money on.

Posted by Casper on Friday, 09.14.12 @ 15:51pm

In no order, here are the acts I am considering:

Bad Brains
Belle & Sebastian
Pat Benatar
Boston
The Chemical Brothers
The Commodores
Spencer Davis Group
Wanda Jackson
Tommy James and the Shondells
Kool & The Gang
Korn
LCD Soundsystem
Dave Matthews Band
Neu!
No Doubt
Gary Numan
Ozzy Osbourne
Pantera
Lou Reed
The Specials
Suicide

Posted by Gassman on Friday, 09.14.12 @ 16:45pm

can someone please explain croces case? genuinely curious.

Posted by GFW on Friday, 09.14.12 @ 10:59am


The case for Croce is :

You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask off that old Lone Ranger
And you don't mess around with Jim

Seriously, the case can be summarized in 2 words. Musical excellence. We have already inducted the following singer songwriters for their great contributions:

Warren Zevon, Harry Nilsson, Jackson Browne, James Taylor, Cat Stevens, Weird" Al Yankovic, Nick Drake, Tom Waits and Randy Newman

Jim is no less deserving; and if he continues to be left out, I consider it an obvious snub.

Posted by classicrocker on Friday, 09.14.12 @ 20:12pm

Count me in on Jim Croce. So to recap I will be voting for Jim Croce, The Specials, Belle & Sebastian, Wanda Jackson, Suicide, The Chemical Brothers, & Neu!.

Posted by Greg F on Saturday, 09.15.12 @ 00:32am

Hey, glad to see I may have gotten the ball rolling on Jim Croce. It always feels nice to contribute.

Posted by jtrichey on Saturday, 09.15.12 @ 01:28am

I'm thinking of voting for Kool and the Gang this induction cycle. I see Gassman has expressed support, anyone else interested in voting for them?

Posted by rockstar23 on Saturday, 09.15.12 @ 06:52am

Barring any changes, here is my ballot:

Elliott Smith
PJ Harvey
Neutral Milk Hotel
Gary Numan
Tori Amos
LCD Soundsystem
Neu!

proppa indie, me.

Posted by GFW on Saturday, 09.15.12 @ 07:28am

Add my name to the following acts:

Captain Beefheart & His Magic Band
Nick Cave & The Bad Seeds
The Chemical Brothers
The Human League
Pet Shop Boys
Lou Reed
The Specials

Early influences:
Lonnie Donegan
Karlheinz Stockhausen

Non-performers:
Frankie Knuckles
Art Rupe

Sidemen:
'Daddy' Gene Barge
Fred Wesley

Posted by The_Claw on Sunday, 09.16.12 @ 18:54pm

I'll definitely be voting for Wanda Jackson, Bad Brains, and Jim Croce this round. Ozzy Osbourne and Nick Cave & The Bad Seeds are also most likely.

For my other choices, I'll hold off for now. I've still got more to research on Belle and Sebastian, but they have a lot of support, so we'll see. Boston, Neutral Milk Hotel, Moonglows, Dells, Bauhaus, and others are possibilities.

I guess we'll see when the time comes.

Posted by Steve Z on Sunday, 09.23.12 @ 13:58pm

Also, all of the artists that The_Claw listed would be great choices, and I'd like to see most get in eventually.

Posted by Steve Z on Sunday, 09.23.12 @ 14:11pm

I'm giving an influence vote to Conway Twitty.

Posted by Gassman on Tuesday, 09.25.12 @ 23:40pm

And I'm giving an influence vote to Andy Williams!

Posted by Rick Vendl II on Wednesday, 09.26.12 @ 21:43pm

Here's the latest update on who we plant to vote for....Jim Croce has climbed from being not listed to one of the front-runners.


Performers:

Nick Cave & The Bad Seeds - 7 (Casper, Tahvo, BSLO, DarinRG, Ian, The_Claw, Steve Z)
Wanda Jackson - 7 (Lax29, Steve Z, Tahvo, BSLO, Greg F, Casper, Steve Z)

Neu! - 6 (Casper, Tahvo, DarinRG, GFW, Greg F, GFW)

Jim Croce - 5 (Tahvo, Greg F, classicrocker, jtrichey, Steve Z)
The Specials - 5 (Tahvo, Ian, Greg F, DarinRG, The_Claw)

Belle & Sebastian - 4 (Casper, Lax29, Ian, Greg F)
The Chemical Brothers - 4 (Sam, Greg F, jtrichey, The_Claw)
Suicide - 4 (Casper, DarinRG, Sam, Greg F)

Bauhaus - 3 (Tahvo, BSLO, DarinRG)
Lou Reed - 3 (Casper, Lax29, The_Claw)
Tommy James and the Shondells - 3 (Jim, Ian, jtrichey)

The Commodores - 2 (Jim, Ian)
George Michael - 2 (Jim, Ian)
Muse - 2 (Lax29, jtrichey)
Pantera - 2 (BSLO, Jim)
Pat Benatar - 2 (Lax29, jtrichey)

Peter Tosh - Lax29
The Alan Parsons Project - Lax29
Suede - Sam
Bad Brains - Steve Z
Spencer Davis Group - Tahvo
No Doubt - BSLO
Garth Brooks - Jim
Gary Numan - GFW
LCD Soundsystem - GFW
Elliott Smith - GFW
PJ Harvey - GFW
Neutral Milk Hotel - GFW
Gary Numan - GFW
Tori Amos - GFW
LCD Soundsystem - GFW
Captain Beefheart - The_Claw
The Human League - The_Claw
Pet Shop Boys - The_Claw
Ozzy Osbourne - Steve Z





Non-Performers:

Sylvia Robinson - 3 (Mikhail, Tahvo, Ian)

Art Rupe - 2 (Casper, The_Claw)
Fritz Pfleumer - 2 (GFW, Tahvo)

Godley and Creme - Lax29
Hipgnosis - Lax29
Lee Hazlewood - Ian
Stephen Street - Sam
Thomas Edison - GFW
Neil Bogart - Greg F
Richard Perry - Greg F
Frankie Knuckles - The_Claw





Influences:

Karlheinz Stockhausen - 5 (Tahvo, Casper, DarinRG, Greg F, The_Claw)
Jacques Brel - 4 (Tahvo, Ian, Casper, DarinRG, Greg F)

Wanda Jackson - Sam
Bill Withers - Lax29
The Last Poets - Ian
Sun Ra - Lax29
Lonnie Donegan - The_Claw
Conway Twitty - Gassman
Andy Williams - Rick Vendi II





Sidemen:

Carlos Alomar - Ian
Bob Babbitt - Greg F
Cornell Dupree - Greg F
Phillip Paul - Tahvo
Pino Palladino - Lax29
Tammi Terrell - Ian
Wayne Shorter - Lax29
Jack Nitzsche - Tahvo
'Daddy' Gene Barge - The_Claw
Fred Wesley - The_Claw

Posted by Casper on Thursday, 09.27.12 @ 17:05pm

I'm consdiering voting Robyn.

Posted by GFW on Friday, 09.28.12 @ 13:54pm

I'm listed twice for Wanda Jackson! So she really has 6 votes

Posted by Steve Z on Saturday, 09.29.12 @ 14:30pm

When are we actually voting? I haven't decided who all I'll vote for, but I've got some ideas floating.

Posted by Philip on Saturday, 09.29.12 @ 14:54pm

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/view/274639/JIMMY-SAVILLE-RAPED-ME/JIMMY-SAVILLE-RAPED-ME

If this is true then you can strike my support for him.

Posted by GFW on Sunday, 09.30.12 @ 06:22am

Honestly GFW I didn't even know who he was before that. Saying that, the whole thing strikes me as phony.

Posted by Sam on Tuesday, 10.2.12 @ 05:14am

Possibly, but i dunno. Anyway, I got two much elss dubiosu people, Thomas Edison and Fritz Pfleumer

Posted by GFW on Tuesday, 10.2.12 @ 11:22am

Yeah I think Sam might be right, GFW. There seems to be quite a bit of conspiracy floating around on Jimmy Saville (not necessarily this, but some pretty weird other stuff), not sure why.

Posted by Tahvo Parvianen on Tuesday, 10.2.12 @ 15:46pm

Alright, everyone. The Official Rock Hall Nominations have been revealed, so it's now time to do our annual balloting in our Unofficial (Superior) Hall of Fame.

Be sure to take a look at the list a few posts above me of who are regulars said they would support. It will help us all avoid wasting votes on candidates that have no chance of being elected. I'm hoping people say generally faithful to the commitments they made earlier, but strategic voting has always been a part of this project so I imagine some people will adjust their ballot based on the first few submitted. That's alright.


Anyway, here's my ballot...

Performers:

Belle & Sebastian
Lou Reed
Neu!
Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds
The Specials
Suicide
Wanda Jackson

Non-Performers:

Art Rupe
Glyn Johns

Influences:

Jacques Brel
Karlheinz Stockhausen

I have no intention to vote in the Sidemen category at this point in time.

Posted by Casper on Thursday, 10.4.12 @ 03:39am

Also, just a quick apology for a lot of my typos around this site lately. I sometimes come on here during the week when I'm up late or after working a night shift and it obviously leads my brain to have a bit of a fit when I'm typing.

Posted by Casper on Thursday, 10.4.12 @ 03:41am

Bauhaus
Jim Croce
Neu!
Nick Cave & the Bad Seeds
The Specials
Suicide
Wanda Jackson



NP

Godley and Creme
Glyn Johns

Inf

Karlheinz Stockhausen
Jacques Brel

Posted by DarinRG on Thursday, 10.4.12 @ 03:54am

I know it came up before and was rather contentious, but should we reconsider eliminating the Sidemen category?

1 - As seen above, most of the regulars didn't even bother to say which Sidemen they plan on supporting. Either because they don't care or don't think there's any worthy candidates left.

2 - Our first two ballots have no votes for Sidemen and I'm sure there will be plenty more.

3 - It's pointless to keep watering down such a category that has next-to-no relevance on the latter history of Rock and Roll. For the most part, there's been nobody really deserving of the honor that started their career in the 90's and 00's. If we continue this category, it will just become worse and worse in hindsight....it's akin to having a Performer slot be designated to a 60's act every single year since that's where most of these Sidemen come from. We should be honoring the bulk of rock history, but in the modern industry where few journeymen are needed or go on to accomplish much that's important, it relegates us to a category that only documents a brief era in rock history (for the most part).

4 - No real majority. It's getting ridiculous to keep open a category where, as we saw last year, someone can be inducted with as few as 3 votes. This year, it looks like 2 could even be the magic number as nobody even earned multiple votes in our pre-season selection.

My take is that we should let the voting run. If more than 50% don't vote in the category, we eliminate it from here on out. If more than 50% vote in the category, but their ballots average less than 1.5 names, we keep the category but only induct one person this year. Next year, the category would once again face extinction.

Posted by Casper on Thursday, 10.4.12 @ 04:14am

Ok, here goes:

-Suicide
-The Specials
-Pantera
-Suede
-The Chemical Brothers
-Wanda Jackson (Other people have sold me on why she shouldn't have been an EI)
-Bauhaus (I keep going back and forth, but right now I'm thinking yes)

NP:

-Stephen Street
-Glyn Johns

Early Influence:
-Karlheinz Stockhausen

No Sidemen this round

Posted by Sam on Thursday, 10.4.12 @ 05:01am

OK:

Performers:

Nick Cave & The Bad Seeds
Wanda Jackson
Neu!
Jim Croce
The Specials
Bauhaus
The Spencer Davis Group

Non-Performers:

Sylvia Robinson
Fritz Pfleumer

Influences:

Jacques Brel
Karlheinz Stockhausen

Sidemen:

Jack Nitzsche
Philip Paul

Posted by Tahvo Parvianen on Thursday, 10.4.12 @ 06:30am

Assuming this voting I'm seing is for the 2028 class.

I would be OK with eliminating sideman catagory, as I never voted on it anyway.

Posted by Paul in KY on Thursday, 10.4.12 @ 07:54am

Here is my 2028 ballot:

Performers:

Arcade Fire
Blink-182
Jim Croce
Wanda Jackson
The Offspring
The Specials
Peter Tosh


Non-Performers:

Sylvia Robinson
Glyn Johns

Influences:

Jacques Brel
Karlheinz Stockhausen

No sideman vote

Posted by Paul in KY on Thursday, 10.4.12 @ 10:55am

My votes:

Mariah Carey (actually, shes the biggest R&B snub)
Garth Brooks
George Michael
The Offspring
Pantera
Tommy James & The Shondells
The Commodores

I also fully support the induction of Jim Croce. If he's behind I'll swap my Pantera vote for him.

Posted by Jim on Thursday, 10.4.12 @ 11:14am

I'm going to stick with just performers this time around. Here's my 2028 ballot:

Bauhaus
Nick Cave & The Bad Seeds
No Doubt
Pantera
The Offspring
Tommy James & The Shondells
Wanda Jackson

Posted by BSLO on Thursday, 10.4.12 @ 11:26am

Let's do this.

Neu!
Gary Numan
Neutral Milk Hotel
Elliott Smith
PJ Harvey
LCD Soundsystem
The Human League

Fritz Pfleumer
Thomas Edison

Never cared much about sideman cateogry, and don't see the need for it to continue.

Posted by GFW on Thursday, 10.4.12 @ 12:00pm

Just to clear up the confusion, we ARE voting on the 2028 class right now. Everybody can vote by posting their ballot. We only do this once a year, so be sure to join in!

Posted by Casper on Thursday, 10.4.12 @ 16:28pm

For 2028:


Performers

Jim Croce
Wanda Jackson
Peter Tosh
Pantera
Suicide
Olivia Newton-John
The Specials


Non-Performers

Thomas Edison
Jerry Blavat


Influences

Johann Sebastian Bach
Karlheinz Stockhausen

Posted by classicrocker on Thursday, 10.4.12 @ 16:30pm

For influences, chuck in Beethoven and Stockhausen.

Posted by GFW on Thursday, 10.4.12 @ 16:35pm

Jim Croce
The Specials
Belle & Sebastian
Wanda Jackson
Suicide
The Chemical Brothers
Neu!

Non-Performers:

Richard Barret
Richard Perry

Influences:

Jacques Brel
Karlheinz Stockhausen

Sidemen:

Bob Babbitt
Cornell Dupree

Posted by Greg F on Thursday, 10.4.12 @ 18:56pm

Public Enemy
NWA
The Marvelettes
Donna Summer
Kraftwerk

PE my favorite Hip Hop group Glad to see the Hall being more inclusive

Posted by Leon on Thursday, 10.4.12 @ 19:22pm

My vote:

Performers:

Belle & Sebastian
Wanda Jackson
LCD Soundsystem
Dave Matthews Band
No Doubt
Suicide
Pantera

Non-Performers:

Richard Perry
Art Rupe

Influences:

Karlheinz Stockhausen
Conway Twitty

Sidemen:

I agree that it is time to get rid of this category

Posted by Gassman on Thursday, 10.4.12 @ 19:53pm

Wanda Jackson
Belle & Sebastian
Neu!
Kool and the Gang
The Chemical Brothers
A Tribe Called Quest
The Commodores

Influences:
Conway Twitty
Josh White

Non-Performers:
Art Rupe
Glyn Johns

Sidemen:
Chuck Rainey
Roy Caton

Posted by rockstar23 on Thursday, 10.4.12 @ 20:24pm

With regards to getting rid of the Side-Man category, if so, then will our Blind Ballot Hall only inductees be merged into Rock Hall Projected?

Might as well merge all categories from that project while we're at it!

Posted by Rick Vendl II on Thursday, 10.4.12 @ 20:46pm

The Rock Hall Revisited/Projected and the Blind Ballot Hall are two totally different projects with different groups of voters. Mixing the two would be unfair to the voters of this project.

Posted by Gassman on Thursday, 10.4.12 @ 21:29pm

Then do not just outright get rid of the Rock Hall Projected Side-Man category, relegating it as over when there is still much work to be done, I find that unfair for this project's voters!

Posted by Rick Vendl II on Thursday, 10.4.12 @ 21:34pm

Let's try this:

Belle & Sebastian
Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds
The Commodores
Tommy James and the Shondells
George Michael
The Specials
A Tribe Called Quest

Non-Performers

Lee Hazelwood
Sylvia Robinson

Influences:

Jacques Brel
Conway Twitty

Sidemen:

Carlos Alomar
The Dap-Kings

Posted by Ian on Thursday, 10.4.12 @ 23:23pm

Jim Croce
Tommy James & the Shondells
LCD Soundsystem
Chemical Brothers
Arcade Fire
The Guess Who
Sweet

sidemen:
Clarence Clemons (he has done a ton more than just the E Street band)
Rick Derringer

non-performer:
Lester Bangs
Jon Landau

influence:
eh, IMO if we are out of sidemen, we are out of influences too.

Posted by jtrichey on Friday, 10.5.12 @ 00:32am

jtrichey - Arcade Fire is not eligible until next year.

Posted by Gassman on Friday, 10.5.12 @ 00:34am

We are going to fallow this rule for categories (thanks Casper):

If more than 50% don't vote in the category, we eliminate it from here on out. If more than 50% vote in the category, but their ballots average less than 1.5 names, we keep the category but only induct one person this year. Next year, the category would once again face extinction.

Posted by Gassman on Friday, 10.5.12 @ 00:36am

I'm totally down with including that rule for the other categories as well. Influences also has an expiration date. While our category runs alongside the Rock Era and includes artists that don't necessarily fit that scope but played a big hand in shaping it (Fela Kuti, etc.), it does pretty much die off around the 70's. It's another category where you can't just indefinitely induct names because you'll eventually hit a wall.

Non-Performers is somewhat similar. A lot of the innovators and important label founders, well, we aren't really going to have any of those in the near future (or really had any from the 80's onward). I imagine there's still room here for a lot of names, but aside from modern Producers, I'm not sure if there's much else to induct.

Basically, these categories are mostly here to admire those that formed and shaped the bedrock of the rock era. Eventually, you run out of names from that earlier period and they need to be phased out.

Posted by Casper on Friday, 10.5.12 @ 00:42am

Paul In KY and jtrichey each have one replacement vote in the Performers category, as The Arcade Fire aren't eligible until next year.

Posted by Darren on Friday, 10.5.12 @ 00:43am

Performers:

Belle And Sebastian
Nick Cave And The Bad Seeds
Pantera

LCD Soundsystem (The best newly eligible artist, though I'm surprised there's been no support for The Black Keys)

George Michael
PJ Harvey
The Guess Who

Non-Performers:

Jon Landau
Lester Bangs

Posted by Darren on Friday, 10.5.12 @ 00:52am

Gassman, Arcade Fire is on the 2028 page here. That is why I voted for them.

You didn't comment on me including them, I guess that means you never look at my votes (sniff). I look at yours.

Posted by Paul in KY on Friday, 10.5.12 @ 09:06am

If a band is on the 2028 page it means that they are eligible in 2028 but would be inducted in the 2029 ceremony. We have all of our years up above based on the year of the induction ceremony. It's confusing, but that's the way we've been doing it since the beginning.

Arcade Fire, Beyonce, Kanye West, etc. are all eligible next year!

Posted by Gassman on Friday, 10.5.12 @ 11:34am

Actually I think I have a better idea for the categories that aren't on enough ballots. How about in order for that category to count it has to have votes on at least 50% of the ballots. The categories are never eliminated so if we think of something or someone new comes along we feel like we should recognize, we still have the option. Thoughts?

Posted by Gassman on Friday, 10.5.12 @ 11:44am

Oops.

Replace Arcade fire with:

Midnight Oil

Posted by jtrichey on Friday, 10.5.12 @ 14:26pm

Gassman, that would satisfy everyone. Let's stick with that.


Where We Stand:

NP - 13 (86.7%)
IN - 11 (73.3%)
SM - 5 (33.3%)



Total: 15 (Casper, DarinRG, Sam, Tahvo, Paul in KY, Jim, BSLO, GFW, classicrocker, Greg F, Gassman, rockstar23, Ian, jtrichey, Darren)


All the categories had two names in each except Sam only voted for one person in the Influences category.

Ballot Averages:

NP - 2.0
SM - 2.0
IN - 1.9



I'd also like it if we could forego posting voting updates in this thread. People have had months of pre-season time to see the above preference list that I compiled and updated. There's no point in letting later voters have an over-sized influence on the electorate when anybody can go see who the most likely candidates are just by scrolling back a few days on this page.

Posted by Casper on Friday, 10.5.12 @ 16:41pm

There is an opportunity to alter your own vote though right? So if that is true, there should be at least one voting update before changes are allowed. (Personally, I don't see a problem with voting updates, this is not a secret type of vote.)

Posted by jtrichey on Friday, 10.5.12 @ 16:49pm

We've done voting updates for every induction class so far, why change it now?

This isn't the blind ballot version.

Posted by Jim on Friday, 10.5.12 @ 16:54pm

Paul in KY: Sorry I didn't see your mistake! You do have one more vote though!

Posted by Gassman on Friday, 10.5.12 @ 16:55pm

Performers:

1. The Dells
2. The Moonglows
3. Wanda Jackson
4. The Tokens
5. Mariah Carey
6. Lesley Gore
7. Huey Lewis And The News

Non-Performers:

1. Steve Barri & P.F. Sloan
2. Bob Crewe

Influences:

1. Amos Milburn
2. Fats Waller

Sideman:

1. Philip Paul
2. Jack Nitzche

Posted by Philip on Friday, 10.5.12 @ 18:22pm

At long last, we can now vote on the continuation of our crown jewel: the Revisited/Projected Rock Hall Project. At the least, this will be for the Class of 2028; albeit I would prefer at least one other election cycle before the year is out.

Before I show my ballot, I would like to comment on the issue of what should be kept and discarded in terms of categories. I say we keep all categories. There is no need to get rid of a category when pressed for people to induct. If this is considered a backdoor way of inducting artists that could have also been considered performers, so be it. Now then, here is my final ballot for 2028.


Performers

Belle And Sebastien
Wanda Jackson
Peter Tosh
Lou Reed
Gary Numan
The Chemical Brothers
Olivia Newton-John

Non-Performers

Godley and Creme
Lester Bangs

Influences

Karlheinz Stockhausen
Johann Sebastien Bach

Sidemen

Jack Nitzsche
Cornell Dupree

Well, that is my final and unimpeachable ballot. It did change somewhat over the last 3 months or so. Yet, I find this ballot to be reasonable enough. Thanks go out to future rock legends yet again for allowing us to continue this more superior and egalitarian Hall of Fame. Our influence over the actual Rock and Roll Hall of Fame needs to continue. We are making progress in these endeavors. And I am humbled and glad to be a part of it all.

Hope to be back soon with another block rocking election:),

Lax29

Posted by Lax29 on Friday, 10.5.12 @ 20:42pm

After looking throw people's sidemen votes, I've decided to give votes to:

Carlos Alomar
Jack Nitzsche

Posted by Gassman on Saturday, 10.6.12 @ 00:45am

I hear you out Lax29, but I just say let the majority have their say. If people don't even care enough to vote in a category, then it probably shouldn't be here. On top of that, we're going with Gassman's proposal that none of the categories will be removed forever, so if interest piques up next year, people can still be inducted in them.

Basically, they're all there if people care.

Posted by Casper on Saturday, 10.6.12 @ 03:03am

My Ballot:

1.) Wanda Jackson
2.) Bad Brains
3.) Jim Croce
4.) Nick Cave & The Bad Seeds
5.) Ozzy Osbourne
6.) The Moonglows
7.) Bauhaus

Non-Performer
1.) Glyn Johns
2.) Art Rupe

Influences
1.) Jacques Brel
2.) Josh White

Sidemen
1.) Philip Paul
2.) Rick Derringer

Posted by Steve Z on Saturday, 10.6.12 @ 12:46pm

Please replace my Arcade Fire vote with Tommy James & the Shondells

Posted by Paul in KY on Saturday, 10.6.12 @ 17:08pm

Change my NP votes to Art Rupe and Glyn Johns, please.

Posted by Philip on Saturday, 10.6.12 @ 23:33pm

My ballot for the Rock Hall Projected class of 2028...

Performers

Phil Collins
Three Dog Night
The Alan Parsons Project
Foreigner
The J. Geils Band
Joe South
Olivia Newton-John

Influences

Andy Williams
The Four Aces

Non-Performers

Hugh Padgham
Thom Bell

Side-Men

Bob Babbitt
Chester Thompson

Posted by Rick Vendl II on Sunday, 10.7.12 @ 12:03pm

As I look things over, I see the worry that posting updates will somehow harm the process to be totally baseless. In fact I would say the exact opposite. There is an extreme prejudice to those who vote early as following voters are probably too concerned with wasting votes. Long story short, I am posting an update through Rick Vendl II's vote:

Performer:
Wanda Jackson 13

The Specials 8

Belle & Sebastian 7
Nick Cave & The Bad Seeds 7
Jim Croce 7

Neu! 6
Suicide 6
Pantera 6
------------(there isn't a single artist currently slated for induction that wasn't named on one of the first 3 ballots! An awful lot of power in getting your vote in early IMO)

Bauhaus 5
The Chemical Brothers 5
Tommy James & The Shondells 5

LCD Soundsystem 4

The Offspring 3
Peter Tosh 3
George Michael 3
The Commodores 3
Olivia Newton-John 3

Lou Reed 2
Mariah Carey 2
No Doubt 2
Gary Numan 2
PJ Harvey 2
A Tribe Called Quest 2
The Guess Who 2
The Moonglows 2

Suede 1
The Spencer Davis Group 1
Blink-182 1
Garth Brooks 1
Neutral Milk Hotel 1
Elliott Smith 1
The Human League 1
The Dave Mathews Band 1
Kool & The Gang 1
Sweet 1
Midnight Oil 1
The Dells 1
The Tokens 1
Lesley Gore 1
Huey Lewis & The News 1
Bad Brains 1
Ozzy Osbourne 1
Phil Collins 1
Three Dog Night 1
The Alan Parsons Project 1
Foreigner 1
The J Geils Band 1
Joe South 1


Non-performers:
Glyn Johns 7

Art Rupe 5
----------(again, the same guys named on the first ballot)

Sylvia Robinson 3
Lester Bangs 3

Godley & Creme 2
Fritz Pfleumer 2
Thomas Edison 2
Richard Perry 2
Jon Landau 2

Stephen Street 1
Jerry Blavat 1
Richard Barret 1
Lee Hazelwood 1
Hugh Padgham 1
Thom Bell 1

Influence:
Karlheinz Stockhausen 10

Jacques Brel 7
-----------(Hey, how about that, the same 2 guys on the very first ballot)

Conway Twitty 3

Bach 2
Josh White 2

Beethoven 1
Amos Milburn 1
Fats Waller 1
Andy Williams 1
The Four Aces 1

Sidemen:
Jack Nitzsche 4

Philip Paul 3
---------
Bob Babbitt 2
Cornell Dupree 2
Carlos Alomar 2
Rick Derringer 2

Chuck Rainey 1
Roy Caton 1
The Dap-Kings 1
Clarence Clemons 1
Chester Thompson 1

Posted by jtrichey on Sunday, 10.7.12 @ 18:20pm

I think there's been a subtle form of brainwashing going on here for some time. The request to not deviate from your "commitments" is what raised my eyebrows. It feels like sheep being herded in a certain direction. And not allowing a voting update to be posted seems rather Orwellian to me.

Posted by classicrocker on Sunday, 10.7.12 @ 21:50pm

Nah, I had changed my mind about there being a voting update. Plus, this isn't my project. I didn't create it and it's all of ours. I was just hearing people out and voicing my own opinion.

I agree that past precedent is the reason voting updates should be allowed and jtrichey's reasoning makes sense. Better to not let the early voters have all the say by posting an update so later voters can see where to distribute their votes. Those that vote first technically have the most power to dictate the voting trends.

Posted by Casper on Sunday, 10.7.12 @ 22:00pm

jtrichey, I see where you're headed, but you have to keep in mind that the Non-Performer/Side-men categories where practically free-for-alls anyway as evidenced in our pre-season preference voting. That's probably the best argument for your theory though since the categories without consensus would likely be dictated by those that voted soonest.

However, the Influences and Performer categories are pretty much mirror that preferential voting from earlier. That shouldn't be all that surprising.

Posted by Casper on Sunday, 10.7.12 @ 22:05pm

I am not accusing anybody of anything. Except myself of a little whining.

As the results stand now, I think the performer selections are very weak. This is purely an opinion, and obviously the majority here disagree.

The Specials, a 3 album ska band. Ska? Really?

Neu!, a 3 album Krautrock band. Krautrock? Really?

Suicide ,a 2 album electronic band. I do think they had a tiny bit of influence, but you can stretch influence to any level of importance you want. If influence was really so important a band like Culture Club would be a first ballot entry. (And no I don't really think Culture Club belongs).

Sorry for the grouchiness.

Posted by jtrichey on Sunday, 10.7.12 @ 22:55pm

jtrichey, I appreciate your concern. I'm actually really surprised to see how closely the results match the "pre-season." I think part of the reason is because it's easier to jump on the bandwagon for artists you support than go support an artist who doesn't look like they have much of a chance. For example, seeing I was the only one who supported the Spencer Davis Group this round almost made me switch my vote to one of the top vote getters I wasn't supporting at the time. I didn't and sure enough the Spencer Davis Group only ended up with one vote to look at (my own). Doesn't matter though, since I will continue to support them.

Anyway, I hope the sideman category stays this round as Nitzsche and Paul are both deserving and I'm not just saying that because I voted for both ;)

Posted by Tahvo Parvianen on Monday, 10.8.12 @ 04:27am

Just thinking about when the voting should stop, would everyone be cool with closing voting at midnight on Wednesday? (technically Thursday, but you know what I mean =P)

Posted by Gassman on Monday, 10.8.12 @ 14:17pm

I don't know what the norm is, or if there even is a norm as this may be the first year where you've had to wait a whole year to induct a class, but this is the biggest project of the site, and Wednesday will only be one week.

Also, what is the policy on vote changes? I'm not sure any change I make could change anything right now, but what is the typical policy?

Posted by jtrichey on Monday, 10.8.12 @ 14:34pm

I believe we had a 24 hour rule at one point.

Posted by Casper on Monday, 10.8.12 @ 22:01pm

I wonder if I can make a suggestion to this year's class. Like many posters these last few days, I noticed a trend to which quite a number of artists and non-performers were given more traction than others. Of the 8 possible Performers inductees as of now, I voted for 2 of them. Now, as I mentioned in my previous post, I deviated from my initial pre-season ballot: mainly because I was not certain artists on my ballot would be voted on by other posters. Also, as you might have guessed, I usually look at voting trends and tend to vote for those already posted in ballots prior to mine. THat way there is no harm and no foul. Heck, in the two years we have been doing this Project; some of the other posters' favored artists inducted have become mine as well. Silver Apples immediately comes to mind.

I think one reason we feel the need to choose a consensus is to not put on our ballots artists and Non-Performers that seem way out of place. And if not out of place, then clearly not widely respected enough to be listed among the greats in rock. For instance, I would consider all of the classic Genesis line-up's members to have individual careers worthy of the Revisited/Projected Rock Hall Project. So far, we have reached a consensus by inducting Peter Gabriel. Maybe we will soon induct Phil Collins in the near future. Yet, while I think Steve Hackett, Tony Banks, Mike Rutherford and Phil Collins need to be inducted on their own; not many other posters, exceptioning Rick Vendl II, have felt likewise. By this point it simply becomes a need for concurrence, to see that we are not alone in our picks.

So I have come up with a probable solution. Once the voting is completed for the Class of 2028, I suggest we each fill out a hypothetical ballot that would consist of probable inductees that we feel may not be a consensus pick. The key factor is, our ballots present artists and Non-Performers that we feel are equal to those inducted in the Revisited/Projected Rock Hall Project from the beginning through 2028. The only qualification is the artist or Non-Performer needed to be in the business no later than 2002. To make this easier and to provide a starting point, here is my hypothetical ballot.

Performers

Alan Parsons/Eric Woolfson/The Alan Parsons Project
10cc
Sarah McLachlan
Tears For Fears
Bill Withers
Steve Hackett
Camel

Non-Performers

Hipgnosis
Martin Scorsese

Influences

Odetta
Tony Bennett

Sidemen

Narada Michael Walden
Wayne Shorter

Once every poster's hypothetical ballot is on this page, we can then make a consensus as to which poster's ballot is best. That ballot can thus be added as an addendum of some kind to the Class of 2028. Say, 2028.5. If we want, we can do other addendums for recent years; thus a 2027.5, a 2026.5, et al., could be conceived. In the next main ballot, the Class of 2029, whomever was in that addendum ballot can also be considered for the main ballot. Thus, elevation for personal to consensus outright inductee can be acheived.

It is certainly worth the risk. As you may have seen, none of you ever expected me to consider some of the artists or non-performers on my hypothetical ballot as probable personal picks. Let it be known, this hypothetical ballot does NOT change my 2028 ballot. That remains the same as when I typed the ballot in to this website this past Friday. In fact, NONE of the hypothetical ballots will replace our 2028 ballots. This is just a little experiment to consider.

Who is truly using whom in Use Me?,

Lax29

Posted by Lax29 on Monday, 10.8.12 @ 22:09pm

You're correct, Casper. The rule has been that you can only change votes within the first 24 hours after casting your ballot. This was to give leeway to people who may have genuinely overlooked an act, but prevents people from changing votes to block an artist that they don't like or manipulate the final results.

Posted by DarinRG on Monday, 10.8.12 @ 22:44pm

Hello, Lax29. Hope all is well. Your hypothetical ballot contains several names that I would be inclined to support including 10cc, Hipgnosis, and Odetta. Your idea that each participant fill out a hypothetical ballot of "left field" candidates is quite intriguing. How exactly would this unfold? Would the people who submitted the ballots be ranked by each voter, for example:

1. Lax29
2. Gassman
3. Casper
4. classicrocker (I know I'd be ranked last since the number of "indie" choices on my ballot wouldn't be as numerous as some others)

And then the person whose ballot scores the highest after computing the rankings be annointed "2028.5?"

If that's the format you are suggesting, then I for one would be happy to become involved. I would only caution that some among us might not be quite comfortable with the prospect of having THEMSELVES ranked as opposed to ranking artists. Seeing themselves near the bottom of a list like that might have them feel personally slighted, but hopefully they wouldn't hold a grudge....

Posted by classicrocker on Tuesday, 10.9.12 @ 17:34pm

Gassman: Works for me.

Posted by Sam on Tuesday, 10.9.12 @ 18:39pm

Lax29 - Whether or not I would be in favor of your idea would be determined based on your definition of "addendum". Do you mean that these artists would be listed separately, sort of like the "Voter's Choice" nominees in the Song Project or do you mean that these artists would be treated like Hall Of Fame inductees, but with an asterisk?

Posted by Darren on Tuesday, 10.9.12 @ 21:41pm

I would prefer that we don't make any changes to this project. I've always said that I am willing to adjust the rules and number of inductees for other projects, but not this one. I don't think there is any problem to the way things are going and I don't see the need to have another pseudo vote.

Posted by Gassman on Tuesday, 10.9.12 @ 21:48pm

I'm honestly not seeing the purpose of this additional step. To me it's fine if an act either gets in or doesn't. I'd hate to start a ghetto in this project like we did in the Song Project (which, in fairness, I was initially in favor of, but am no longer a fan of).

I think that the system is fine. There have been classes that I loved (like the current one is shaping up to be), and classes that I've hated. We've inducted acts that, to me, fall somewhere between questionable and ridiculous. And there are acts that I find to be highly deserving still waiting on the outside. That's just the nature of an undertaking like this.

It ain't broke, so there's no need to fix it.

That's my two cents anyway.

Posted by DarinRG on Tuesday, 10.9.12 @ 22:01pm

My guesses for 2028... by then, i think there won't be a problem with more than one hip hop or metal artist on the induction list.

Performers

Phil Collins
Three Dog Night
A Tribe Called Quest
The J. Geils Band
Bad Brains
De La Soul

Influences
Charley Patton
Vince Guaraldi

Non-Performers
Fab Five Freddie

Posted by Lord Kel on Tuesday, 10.9.12 @ 22:04pm

Well, I did not expect the levels of concern for this idea. I do apologize for any wrongdoing and/or problems with tweaking the election process. It is not my intention to dilute or ghettoize the amount of inductees in terms of worthiness. Once again, I am sorry if this has caused a concern.

Okay with ending the voting by the ned of this week,

Lax29

Posted by Lax29 on Tuesday, 10.9.12 @ 22:26pm

I am against Lax29's suggestion. Just keep it the way it is right now. One induction per year until we all croak.

Nothing personal, Lax29, enjoy reading your perspective on things.

Posted by Paul in KY on Wednesday, 10.10.12 @ 08:55am

if we're ranking users im obvs #1

Posted by GFW on Wednesday, 10.10.12 @ 11:23am

Also looking at some of the acts we've inducted Neu! and Suicide aren't exactly head scratchers.

Also, how the hell are Ediso nand Pfleumer not getting all the votes when they're probably the two most important people in... well music recording!

Posted by GFW on Wednesday, 10.10.12 @ 11:40am

Also, how the hell are Ediso nand Pfleumer not getting all the votes when they're probably the two most important people in... well music recording!

Posted by GFW on Wednesday, 10.10.12 @ 11:40am

Probably the same reason people like Willie Mitchell, Dr. Robert Moog and Wolfman Jack aren't in the actual Hall of Fame.

Posted by Tahvo Parvianen on Wednesday, 10.10.12 @ 11:49am

Just a heads up that voting will close tonight at midnight! Get your votes in! =)

Posted by Gassman on Wednesday, 10.10.12 @ 13:20pm

Where We Stand:

NP - 17 (89.5%)
IN - 15 (78.9%)
SM - 10 (52.7%)



Total: 19 (Casper, DarinRG, Sam, Tahvo, Paul in KY, Jim, BSLO, GFW, classicrocker, Greg F, Gassman, rockstar23, Ian, jtrichey, Darren, Philip, Lax29, Steve Z, Rick Vendi II)


All the categories had two names in each except Sam only voted for one person in the Influences category.

Ballot Averages:

NP - 2.0
SM - 2.0
IN - 1.9



- Two more Sidemen-less ballots would have to come in between now and tonight's deadline in order for there to be no Sidemen inducted this election. Otherwise, everything will continue as normal.

Posted by Casper on Wednesday, 10.10.12 @ 15:35pm

vote:

Tommy James & The Shondells
Lou Reed
Sweet
Brian Wilson
Gary Numan
PJ Harvey
Frank Black


Non-performers:
Thomas Edison
Richard Perry

Influence:
Jacques Brel
Andy Williams

Sidemen: no vote

Posted by Darrin A on Wednesday, 10.10.12 @ 17:14pm

Casper - I think what Lord Kel posted was meant to be his vote. If so, there should be 21 votes, counting Darrin A.

Posted by Darren on Wednesday, 10.10.12 @ 19:58pm

I'm not sure what that person was posted. It won't affect any results if it counts as a ballot, but it would affect the Sidemen category and prevent it from having any inductees this year.

I say, let's be cautious and include it as a ballot if we want (again, it doesn't matter since it doesn't affect the results), but not count it towards the Sidemen category question.

Posted by Casper on Wednesday, 10.10.12 @ 20:23pm

Voting has closed! I'll post the inductees in just a second!

Posted by Gassman on Thursday, 10.11.12 @ 01:40am

Vote Totals

Performers

Wanda Jackson – 13
Belle & Sebastian – 8
The Specials – 8
Jim Croce – 7
---------------------------------------
Nick Cave & The Bad Seeds – 6
Tommy James & The Shondells – 6
Neu! – 6
Pantera – 6
Suicide – 6
---------------------------------------
Bauhaus – 5
The Chemical Brothers – 5
LCD Soundsystem – 4
A Tribe Called Quest – 3
The Commodores – 3
PJ Harvey – 3
George Michael – 3
Olivia Newton-John – 3
The Offspring – 3
Lou Reed – 3
Peter Tosh – 3
Bad Brains – 2
Mariah Carey – 2
Phil Collins – 2
The J. Geils Band – 2
The Guess Who – 2
The Moonglows – 2
No Doubt – 2
Gary Numan – 2
Sweet – 2
Three Dog Night – 2
Frank Black – 1
Blink-182 – 1
Garth Brooks – 1
The Spencer Davis Group – 1
De La Soul – 1
The Dells – 1
Foreigner – 1
Lesley Gore – 1
The Human League – 1
Kool & The Gang – 1
Huey Lewis & The News – 1
Dave Matthews Band – 1
Midnight Oil – 1
Neutral Milk Hotel – 1
Ozzy Osbourne – 1
The Alan Parsons Project – 1
Joe South – 1
Elliot Smith – 1
Suede – 1
The Tokens – 1
Brian Wilson – 1

Non-Performers

Glyn Johns – 7
Art Rupe – 5
---------------------------------------
Lester Bangs – 3
Thomas Edison – 3
Richard Perry – 3
Sylvia Robinson – 3
Godley and Crème – 2
Jon Landau – 2
Fritz Pfleumer – 2
Richard Barret – 1
Tom Bell – 1
Jerry Blavat – 1
Fab Five Freddie – 1
Lee Hazelwood – 1
Hugh Padgham – 1
Stephen Street – 1

Influences

Karlheinz Stockhausen – 10
Jacques Brel – 8
Conway Twitty – 3
Johann Sebastian Bach – 2
Josh White – 2
Andy Williams – 2
Ludwig van Beethoven – 1
The Four Aces – 1
Vince Guaraldi – 1
Amos Milburn – 1
Charley Patton – 1
Fats Waller – 1

Sidemen

Jack Nitzsche – 4
Philip Paul – 3
Carlos Alomar – 2
Bob Babbitt – 2
Rick Derringer – 2
Roy Caton – 1
Clarence Clemons – 1
The Dap-Kings – 1
Cornell Dupree – 1
Chuck Rainey – 1
Chester Thompson – 1

Posted by Gassman on Thursday, 10.11.12 @ 02:03am

Tiebreaker (Rank All 5, Top 3 Get Inducted):

Nick Cave & The Bad Seeds – 6
Tommy James & The Shondells – 6
Neu! – 6
Pantera – 6
Suicide – 6

Voting will last 3 days and will close at midnight on Saturday

Posted by Gassman on Thursday, 10.11.12 @ 02:04am

My Tiebreaker Vote:

1. Pantera
2. Suicide
3. Neu!
4. Tommy James & The Shondells
5. Nick Cave & The Bad Seeds

Posted by Gasser on Thursday, 10.11.12 @ 02:06am

^ That is me in the post above, btw. Boy do I need to get some sleep...

Posted by Gassman on Thursday, 10.11.12 @ 02:09am

Tie breaker:

Nick Cave & the Bad Seeds
Suicide
Neu!
Pantera
Tommy James & the Shondells

Posted by DarinRG on Thursday, 10.11.12 @ 02:40am

Tie breaker:

Neu!
Suicide
Nick Cave & the Bad Seeds
Pantera
Tommy James & the Shondells

Posted by Greg F on Thursday, 10.11.12 @ 03:10am

Tiebreaker:

1. Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds (5)
2. Neu! (4)
3. Suicide (3)
4. Tommy James and the Shondells (2)
5. Pantera (1)

Posted by Tahvo Parvianen on Thursday, 10.11.12 @ 03:26am

1. Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds (5)
2. Neu! (4)
3. Suicide (3)
4. Tommy James and the Shondells (2)
5. Pantera (1)


Tahvo's got my number.

Posted by Casper on Thursday, 10.11.12 @ 04:03am

1. Pantera
2. Neu!
3. Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds
4. Tommy James and the Shondells
5. Suicide

Posted by rockstar23 on Thursday, 10.11.12 @ 06:16am

Tiebreaker vote for 2028 Induction:

Tommy James & the Shondells - 5 pts
Suicide - 4 pts
Nick Cave & The Bad Seeds - 3 pts
Pantera - 2 pts
Neu! - 1 pt

Posted by Paul in KY on Thursday, 10.11.12 @ 08:13am

Nick Cave and Belle And Sebastian have 7 votes each:

Nick Cave And The Bad Seeds:

Tahvo
BSLO
Ian
Darren
Casper
DarinRG
Steve Z

Belle And Sebastian:

Gassman
Ian
Darren
Lax29
rockstar23
Greg F.
Casper


The tiebreaker should be between:

Pantera
Neu!
Tommy James And The Shondells
Suicide

Everything else matches up in our counts except Gary Numan has 3 votes:

GFW
Darrin A
Lax29

Posted by Darren on Thursday, 10.11.12 @ 08:15am

Pantera
Suicide
Tommy James And The Shondells
Neu!

Posted by BSLO on Thursday, 10.11.12 @ 10:02am

Glad to see I wasn't the only one keeping tabs on how Nick Cave did; nearly freaked when I saw the initial posting on results.

Anyway, on to my Tie-Breaker vote:

Tommy James and the Shondells
Pantera
Suicide
Neu!

Posted by Ian on Thursday, 10.11.12 @ 10:18am

My bad, I'm always thankful that there is someone here checking my numbers.

Posted by Gassman on Thursday, 10.11.12 @ 10:38am

Tommy James & The Shondells
Pantera
Suicide
Neu!

A decent class, if I say so myself.

Posted by Jim on Thursday, 10.11.12 @ 10:53am

Revised Tiebreaker vote for 2028 Induction:

Tommy James & the Shondells - 4 pts
Suicide - 3 pts
Pantera - 2 pts
Neu! - 1 pt

Posted by Paul in KY on Thursday, 10.11.12 @ 10:53am

Neu!
Nick Cave
Suicide
Tommy James
Pantera

Posted by GFW on Thursday, 10.11.12 @ 12:40pm

Does anyone who's already posted their tiebreaker including Nick Cave mind if we just remove Nick Cave from your tiebreaker for the other four performers, assuming you haven't already re-posted it?

Posted by Darren on Thursday, 10.11.12 @ 13:20pm

tiebreaker:

Tommy James and the Shondells
Pantera
Suicide
Neu!

Posted by jtrichey on Thursday, 10.11.12 @ 13:32pm

Darren, nobody will mind. Obviously, where they ranked Nick Cave doesn't matter since the other four were ranked as well.

Posted by Casper on Thursday, 10.11.12 @ 16:42pm

Darren, nobody will mind. Obviously, where they ranked Nick Cave doesn't matter since the other four were ranked as well.

Posted by Casper on Thursday, 10.11.12 @ 16:42pm

Yeah, this won't have any bearing on the rest of my rankings.

Posted by DarinRG on Thursday, 10.11.12 @ 18:09pm

I figured. I wanted to make sure everyone was on the same page, since the two artists that lose this won't have another chance until next year.

Pantera - 4
Suicide - 3
Tommy James And The Shondells - 2
Neu! - 1

Posted by Darren on Thursday, 10.11.12 @ 20:40pm

revised tiebreaker vote:

Neu!- 4
Suicide- 3
Pantera- 2
Tommy James and the Shondells- 1

Posted by Greg F on Thursday, 10.11.12 @ 21:14pm

My Class of 2028 tiebreaker votes...

1. Tommy James & the Shondells – 4 points
2. Pantera – 3 points
3. Neu! – 2 points
4. Suicide – 1 point

Posted by Rick Vendl II on Thursday, 10.11.12 @ 21:15pm

1.) Tommy James and the Shondells - 4 Points
2.) Pantera - 3 Points
3.) Neu! - 2 Points
4.) Suicide - 1 Point

Posted by Steve Z on Thursday, 10.11.12 @ 22:27pm

Just wanted to point out that we're already adjusting the Rock Rankings for the latest inductees in the categories other than Performer.

Also, I've been envisioning a project where we determine where a certain act clinched their induction. For example, we would consider The Beatles.

One poster: Strawberry Fields Forever/Penny Lane single

Another poster: Help! album

Another Poster: Rubber Soul Album


Once we have ten voters for an artist, we would then adjust our opinions a bit until one specific era (say, 1964) comes out on top. In the case of The Beatles, they surely would have been Hall-bound without ever doing more than Help! but they obviously changed the entire scope of Rock and Roll after that.

Also, some acts (say, Percy Sledge) could have more than 50% saying they never had the credentials to get in. The list would ultimately look like...

The Beatles - Help! (In Green)
Percy Sledge - never had the credentials (in red)

Is this a project people would be interested in? We'd strictly limit it to Performers inducted into Cleveland.

Posted by Casper on Thursday, 10.11.12 @ 23:13pm

Another (easier) way to do it would just be to vote on specific years. We could then have the page be adjusted by the number of years it took the artists to get Hall-worthy credentials from the time of their first record (one for The Sex Pistols) and also by the specific year they got in.

It would make for an interesting page. Someone like Bonnie Raitt comes to mind as probably not being worthy until her comeback-era (some 20 years or so into her career).

Posted by Casper on Thursday, 10.11.12 @ 23:16pm

Well, only one more thing left to do for the Revisited/Projected Rock Hall Project Class of 2028. And that is to vote on the four remaining artists to determine which two will be inducted. Fortunately, this is a no-brainer on my end. Thus, here is my tiebreaker ballot.


Pantera - 4
Neu! - 3
Suicide - 2
Tommy James - 1

My two top rankers are one of the better hardcore metal bands of the 1990s, and a highly influential electronic duo from Germany. Suicide are only slightly influential; in all fairness, whom they influenced are more impactful than the influential duo. Regarding Tommy James: I never considered him to be influential . Joan Jett did a much better "Crimson and Clover" than Tommy James did. In addition, Billy Idol had a more definitive "Mony Mony" than the rather loose Tommy James version. In point of fact, The Shondells themselves were never that influential to start with.

There is my ballot then. My thanks and appreciation go out to the website Future Rock Legends for allowing us posters to continue this crown jewel. I do wonder if we could have another induction cycle for 2029 this December. If any of you fellow posters have concerns, let me know.

The first three Pantera albums are wretched, yet the rest are sublime,

Lax29

Posted by Lax29 on Friday, 10.12.12 @ 10:39am

If Neu! lose this tiebreaker i'mma cry myself to sleep.

Posted by GFW on Friday, 10.12.12 @ 17:44pm

Casper: I'm really interested in that project! Yet I would rather we go through all of our inductees for our project, year-by-year. Then we are done we could look at the Cleveland inductees that we haven't inducted yet.

Posted by Gassman on Friday, 10.12.12 @ 17:47pm

Anyone keep track of the tiebreaker? We can actually call it early if the top two names are way out in front since only the top two are going to be inducted.

Posted by Casper on Friday, 10.12.12 @ 19:42pm

Pantera 46

Tommy James and the Shondells 41
Neu! 41
Suicide 41

Posted by Ian on Friday, 10.12.12 @ 19:44pm

How do we deal with a tie in the tie breaker if that happens? Bigger than normal class? Another tie breaker?

Posted by DarinRG on Friday, 10.12.12 @ 19:54pm

Hmmm. We could just let another set of people vote. Given how close it is, I would recommend inducting Pantera and perhaps we could have a "vote for one" of the remaining three?


And no, DarinRG, we never have a bigger class than seven.

Posted by Casper on Friday, 10.12.12 @ 20:03pm

I don't think there ever was a tiebreaker deadline. Let's just keep this running for now.

How about we say the deadline is Saturday at midnight EST (9 PM PST)?

Posted by Casper on Friday, 10.12.12 @ 20:05pm

Voting will last 3 days and will close at midnight on Saturday

Posted by Gassman on Thursday, 10.11.12 @ 02:04am

Posted by Gassman on Friday, 10.12.12 @ 20:11pm

If there is a tie in the tiebreaker, results that tie will be broken by the act that gets the most first place votes, then the most second place votes and so on a so forth. If there is still a tie, we'll cross that bridge then!

Posted by Gassman on Friday, 10.12.12 @ 20:17pm

Guys, someone needs to check my work. I noticed that I counted Greg F twice and somehow had missed Steve Z completely. My count is now somewhat different:

Pantera 44

Tommy James and the Shondells 40
Suicide 40

Neu! 36

Here's what I have down for everyone's vote:

Gassman:
Pantera 4
Suicide 3
Neu! 2
Tommy James and the Shondells 1

DarinRG:
Suicide 4
Neu! 3
Pantera 2
Tommy James and the Shondells 1

Greg F:
Neu! 4
Suicide 3
Pantera 2
Tommy James and the Shondells 1

Tahvo Parvianen:
Neu! 4
Suicide 3
Tommy James and the Shondells 2
Pantera 1

Casper:
Neu! 4
Suicide 3
Tommy James and the Shondells 2
Pantera 1

rockstar23:
Pantera 4
Neu! 3
Tommy James and the Shondells 2
Suicde 1

Paul in KY:
Tommy James and the Shondells 4
Suicide 3
Pantera 2
Neu! 1

BSLO:
Pantera 4
Suicide 3
Tommy James and the Shondells 2
Neu! 1

Ian:
Tommy James and the Shondells 4
Pantera 3
Suicide 2
Neu! 1

Jim:
Tommy James and the Shondells 4
Pantera 3
Suicide 2
Neu! 1

GFW:
Neu! 4
Suicide 3
Tommy James and the Shondells 2
Pantera 1

jtrichey:
Tommy James and the Shondells 4
Pantera 3
Suicide 2
Neu! 1

Darren:
Pantera 4
Suicide 3
Tommy James and the Shondells 2
Neu! 1

Rick Vendi II:
Tommy James and the Shondells 4
Pantera 3
Neu! 2
Suicide 1

Steve Z:
Tommy James and the Shondells 4
Pantera 3
Neu! 2
Suicide 1

Lax29:
Pantera 4
Suicide 3
Neu! 2
Tommy James and the Shondells 1

Sorry about before. Will someone please confirm or correct my results?

Posted by Ian on Friday, 10.12.12 @ 23:14pm

Hmmm.... I've got

Pantera 44
Neu! 42
Suicide 40
Tommy James 40

One of us either shorted or added to Neu!.

Posted by DarinRG on Friday, 10.12.12 @ 23:45pm

(PART 1)

I checked through each of the individual votes.

According to my calculations, Pantera has 44, Tommy James and the Shondells has 40, Suicide has 39, and Neu! has 37.

There were 16 of us voting - Gassman, DarinRG, Tahvo, Casper, rockstar23, BSLO, Ian, Jim, Paul in KY, GFW, jtrichey, Darren, Greg F, Rick Vendll II, myself (Steve Z), and Lax29

Of those 16, 2 of the voters sent out 2 ballots after realizing the error of having Nick Cave & Belle & Sebastian on there (Paul in KY and Greg F)

Posted by Steve Z on Saturday, 10.13.12 @ 02:29am

(PART 2)

I only counted the 2nd ballots from Greg F and Paul in KY.

Of the 16 voters, these were their most recent ballots

Gassman:
Pantera 4
Suicide 3
Neu! 2
Tommy James and the Shondells 1

DarinRG:
Suicide 4
Neu! 3
Pantera 2
Tommy James and the Shondells 1

Greg F: ****2nd Ballot
Neu! 4
Suicide 3
Pantera 2
Tommy James and the Shondells 1

Tahvo Parvianen:
Neu! 4
Suicide 3
Tommy James and the Shondells 2
Pantera 1

Casper:
Neu! 4
Suicide 3
Tommy James and the Shondells 2
Pantera 1

rockstar23:
Pantera 4
Neu! 3
Tommy James and the Shondells 2
Suicde 1

Paul in KY: **** 2nd Ballot
Tommy James and the Shondells 4
Suicide 3
Pantera 2
Neu! 1

BSLO:
Pantera 4
Suicide 3
Tommy James and the Shondells 2
Neu! 1

Ian:
Tommy James and the Shondells 4
Pantera 3
Suicide 2
Neu! 1

Jim:
Tommy James and the Shondells 4
Pantera 3
Suicide 2
Neu! 1

GFW:
Neu! 4
Suicide 3
Tommy James and the Shondells 2
Pantera 1

jtrichey:
Tommy James and the Shondells 4
Pantera 3
Suicide 2
Neu! 1

Darren:
Pantera 4
Suicide 3
Tommy James and the Shondells 2
Neu! 1

Rick Vendi II:
Tommy James and the Shondells 4
Pantera 3
Neu! 2
Suicide 1

Steve Z:
Tommy James and the Shondells 4
Pantera 3
Neu! 2
Suicide 1

Lax29:
Pantera 4
Suicide 3
Neu! 2
Tommy James and the Shondells 1

I'm going to break it down by band and voters in groups of 4
So Pantera is 4(gassman)+2(DarinRG)+2(GregF)+1(Tahvo) = 9

9+ 1(casper) + 4(rockstar23) + 2(PaulinKY) + 4(BSLO) = 20

20+ 3(ian) + 3(jim) + 1(gfw) + 3(jtrichey) = 30

30+ 4(darren) + 3(rickvendll2) + 3(stevez) + 4(lax29) = 44

Posted by Steve Z on Saturday, 10.13.12 @ 02:43am

(PART 3)

Tommy James and the Shondells is

1(gassman) + 1(darinrg) + 1(gregf) + 2(tahvo) = 5

5+ 2(casper) + 2(rockstar23) + 4(paulinky) + 2(bslo) = 15

15+ 4(ian) + 4(jim) + 2(gfw) + 4(jtrichey) = 29

29+ 2(darren) + 4(rickvendell2) + 4(stevez) + 1(lax29) = 40

Posted by Steve Z on Saturday, 10.13.12 @ 02:48am

Suicide has

3(gassman) + 4(darinrg) + 3(gregf) + 3(tahvo) = 13

13+ 3(casper) + 1(rockstar23) + 3(paulinky) + 3(blso) = 23

23+ 2(ian) + 2(jim) + 3(gfw) + 2(jtrichey) = 32

32+ 3(darren) + 1(rickvendll2) + 1(stevez) + 3(lax29) = 40

Ok, so my bad. Suicide has 40. Meaning that Suicide and Tommy James are tied with 40 points.

Posted by Steve Z on Saturday, 10.13.12 @ 02:55am

Neu! has

2(gassman) + 3(darinrg) + 4(gregf) + 4(tahvo) = 13

13+ 4(casper) + 3(rockstar23) + 1(paulinky) + 1(bslo) = 22

22+ 1(ian) + 1(jim) + 4(gfw) + 1(jtrichey) = 29

29+ 1(darren) + 2(rickvendll2) + 2(stevez) + 2(lax29) = 36

Alright, so my original calculations were a touch off (which is embarrassing - but it is late.) But now I have broken it down for each artist very specifically.

The final tally is:

Pantera - 44
Tommy James & The Shondells - 40
Suicide - 40
Neu! - 36

So Pantera is in and Neu! is out. I guess that means it is between Tommy James & the Shondells and Suicide.

Posted by Steve Z on Saturday, 10.13.12 @ 03:02am

Gassman had posted this about a tie in a tiebreaker - "If there is a tie in the tiebreaker, results that tie will be broken by the act that gets the most first place votes, then the most second place votes and so on a so forth. If there is still a tie, we'll cross that bridge then!"

Tommy James & the Shondells had 6 1st place/4 point votes (Paul in KY, Ian, Jim, jtrichey, Rick Vendll II, Steve Z)

Suicide had 1 1st place/4 point vote (DarinRG)

According to Gassman's rules, I suppose that Tommy James and the Shondells are the winner of the tiebreaker and the seventh inductee of our 2028 class.

Posted by Steve Z on Saturday, 10.13.12 @ 03:11am

When I ment Midnight on Saturday, I probably should have clarified it meant Midnight on Sunday after we've had a full Saturday. Hopefully that didn't confuse anyone.

Posted by Gassman on Saturday, 10.13.12 @ 03:37am

Here's my tie-breaker vote:

Tommy James & the Shondells
Neu!
Suicide
Pantera

Posted by Darrin A on Saturday, 10.13.12 @ 04:22am

Steve Z, I noticed an error in your vote tallies for the tiebreaking vote. Namely, I did not rank Suicide as #2 in my depth chart. That honor was bestowed upon Neu!. So, Neu! gets three points, while Suicide gets two points. I even explained why I picked Neu! as part of my final ballot rather than Suicide. Thus, between that clarification and Darrin A submitting his tiebreaker ballot, the tallies need to be amended yet again.

Sorry to clarify this, yet it needed to be corrected,

Lax29

Posted by Lax29 on Saturday, 10.13.12 @ 08:44am

Oh sheesh, my bad Lax29. It was incredibly late when I wrote that all (I had had to stay up for my roommate's sake - long story.) Anyway, I'm glad that you caught my error. With that and, assuming that I got everyone else's votes correctly added, then Suicide did have 39 and Neu! had 37, before Darrin A's latest ballot. Now I know to never try math that late again.

Posted by Steve Z on Saturday, 10.13.12 @ 11:39am

Ian - I agree with all of the ballots in your count except for Lax. Lax voted:

Pantera - 4
Neu! - 3
Suicide - 2
Tommy James - 1

My count at that point is:

Pantera - 44
Tommy James - 40
Suicide - 39
Neu! - 37

Gassman - The whole midnight thing is why I changed my deadlines to 10 PM. lol

With Darrin A's ballot, my current count (no math required, as I keep track of this stuff in an Excel spreadsheet) is:

Pantera - 45
Tommy James And The Shondells - 44
Suicide - 41
Neu! - 40

Posted by Darren on Saturday, 10.13.12 @ 16:35pm

Over on the Rock Rankings page (http://http://www.futurerocklegends.com/Revisited_Projected_Rankings.php), we're currently discussing re-ranking the performers that have been inducted in the Re-Visited / Projected project using a variation of the ranking method we used for the album ranking project. I'm posting this here to find out if people are interested in participating in this project and if they're interested in doing the re-ranking this year or next year at this time. The more participants we have, the better and more representative the rankings will be.

Here are the details:

This project would only involve the artists that have been inducted into the Re-visited / Project Hall Of Fame (the Blind Ballot HOF is a separate project and should be treated as such to avoid confusion):

After this class, there will be 301 artists inducted into the Revisited and Projected HOF.

My idea is to conduct the Performer Re-ranking using a method similar to what we use in the Album Ranking project. That method works rather smoothly and since artists are easier to evaluate than albums (and there are fewer eligible artists than eligible albums), this project should be an even better fit.

How it would work (all specifics can be adjusted):

1. Anyone who is interested in participating can nominate as many as 25 artists.

2. The artists with the most nominations are put on the ballot. In the album project, this is any album with 4 or more nominations, but depending on participation, that number might be different.

3. Anyone who is interested in participating, whether they submitted nominations or not, can then rank their top artists. If we rank 10 artists per round (30 rounds), voters would rank their top 15 nominated artists. If we rank 15 artists per round (20 rounds), voters would rank their top 20. We could also change the number of artists ranked per round at some point to speed up the process (for example, 15 rounds of 10 and 10 rounds of 15).

4. The ranking scores would be combined to get the overall rankings. At this point we could either use the ranking scores for the final rankings or re-vote with only the selected 10 / 15 artists eligible to determine the final rankings.

5. Each voter would be informed of how many of their previously nominated artists had been ranked. They could then submit that many replacement nominations from the pool of eligible artists to prepare the next round of nominations. During the replacement nomination period, we could also do tiebreaker votes from the previous round.

6. Lather, rinse, repeat until all 301 artists are ranked.

The best way to run this type of project would be to have a set schedule of events, preferably on a one week per round basis. Once we figure out exactly what we want to do we can figure out the schedule. In the album ranking project, it's 2 days for nominations (Ending on Tuesday) and 5 days of voting (Ending on Sunday). If we decide to have a final vote after determining the artists to be ranked, that time could be taken out of the 5 days of voting. The re-vote could also take place at the same time as the next round's nominations.

I would also suggest that we do this re-ranking every year after adding a new Projected HOF class or every other year at the same time.

I'm available to tally the votes and run the re-nomination process, but I would need at least 1 and maybe 2 people as back-ups for weeks when I'm unavailable.

What do you guys think?

Posted by Darren on Saturday, 10.13.12 @ 21:49pm

Tiebreaker:

Suicide 4
Pantera 3
Neu! 2
Tommy James And The Shondells 1

Posted by classicrocker on Saturday, 10.13.12 @ 22:42pm

Darren-I like the format and I like the idea of doing an annual re-ranking in conjunction with Projected. I think that each year there may be a slight variance in the voting body and I know that, at least for myself, I'm constantly re-evaluating artists throughout the year, as I'm sure most do. So, I think we could have an interestingly fluid list year to year.

Posted by DarinRG on Saturday, 10.13.12 @ 23:01pm

Based on the revised vote tallies, and DarrenA and classicrocker's votes, I currently have:

Pantera - 48

Tommy James & The Shondells - 45
Suicide - 45

Neu! - 42

Posted by Ian on Sunday, 10.14.12 @ 10:27am

Well, it is now after 1:00 EST. I think the tiebreaking voting cycle has expired. Regarding the tiebreaker between Suicide and Tommy James: I took a notice of first place votes for these two acts. Suicide got 2 first place votes, wheras Tommy James got 8 first place votes. So, based on the structure of breaking a tie with first place votes; here then is our Revisited/Projected Rock Hall Project Class of 2028.


Performers

Belle & Sebastien
Nick Cave
Jim Croce
Wanda Jackson
Tommy James
Pantera
The Specials

Non-Performers

Glyn Johns
Art Rupe

Influences

Jacques Brel
Karlheinz Stockhausen

Sidemen

Jack Nitzsche
Philip Paul

Also, we will include The Bad Seeds alongside Nick Cave. And we also will include The Shondells alongside Tommy James.

And there we have it, I assume. The Class of 2028. Quite a reasonable class if I say so myself. If I did this wrong, let me know and this can be rectified.

Time to re-rank the rock rankings (say that 4 times fast!):),

Lax29

Posted by Lax29 on Sunday, 10.14.12 @ 13:34pm

Thanks for the post the results Lax29!

Posted by Gassman on Sunday, 10.14.12 @ 14:40pm

While I would prefer waiting a year to re-rank the artists, I'm sure I would participate if everyone wants to do it now.

Posted by jtrichey on Sunday, 10.14.12 @ 15:25pm

Gentlemen (& ladies) on this site:

A few days ago, the subject of what to do after the Album Rankings came up. Obviously, I had a feeling that someone would bring up the idea of re-ranking the Performers, at it was already mentioned some ways back.

At the same time, I seized on something that was mentioned over a year ago, and took it on myself to do a little inquiring. Over a yr. ago, an idea was floated around that we might attempt our own record reviews of the albums we've inducted into our Album Project. It drew some interest, but everyone seemed to want the immediate payoff of Artist Rankings. I quietly put it aside myself, but never forgot about it.

Initially I was under the impression that we'd only be able to handle one thing at a time here, but the site in general has been juggling multiple projects quite easily. Hence, I wish to bring this up again. I am not discounting myself from the new Ranking project, as my interest has grown quite considerably in the past yr. However, I also feel we could easily do that, And try a few album reviews as well.

I already broached the idea w/the Site Admin., & he says that in order to do it, we would simply have to write reviews right on the artist pages. He noted how the proposed Induction speeches did not necessarily go off well, & he has made no promise that something might be formed out of this. However, he did say if we wrote album reviews directly on the Artist pages themselves, he would see if he could whip something up (a section, I presume).

I wish to enquire as to how many of you would be interested in adding this in addition to an artist re-ranking? It only takes a little bit to re-rank the artists, & I figured this might be a nice addition to what we already have going here. Give it a thought, and let me know.

Thanks. :)

Posted by Cheesecrop on Sunday, 10.14.12 @ 15:45pm

I don't see why it would be fair to induct Tommy James & The Shondells for having more first place votes. If anything, the fact that they have more first place votes than Suicide means they must have MORE last place votes than Suicide in order for the numbers to even out.

Shouldn't the tie-breaker simply be the artist that was ranked higher on more ballots? I've got Suicide winning by a margin of 10 to 8 after a quick glance.

Posted by Casper on Sunday, 10.14.12 @ 19:05pm

Casper: If you want we can have a vote off between the two?

Posted by Gassman on Sunday, 10.14.12 @ 19:27pm

But the vote-off wouldn't even be necessary....if Suicide finished higher than Tommy James & The Shondells on more ballots in the tiebreaker (which it looks like they did), then we know they'd win it.

Really wish there had been on more ballot, then the decision would have been made for us. We're definitely in new territory though as that four-way tiebreaker was insanely close.

Posted by Casper on Sunday, 10.14.12 @ 19:31pm

I still don't see why we can't induct both in the case of a tie. I know we've never done it, but we've never been in this situation before. It's not going to kill us to have a class of eight for once.

Posted by DarinRG on Sunday, 10.14.12 @ 20:39pm

I'd also add that as a Suicide supporter I'm not in favor of any solution where they're suddenly given Tommy James' spot. I don't want to see them get in that way and it's not fair to TJ's supporters.

I'd only be in favor of inducting both or just sticking with Tommy James and trying again next year with Suicide.

Posted by DarinRG on Sunday, 10.14.12 @ 20:48pm

According to my tallies.....


First place votes:

Tommy James 7
Suicide 2


Last place votes:

Tommy James 5
Suicide 3


Higher ranking:

Suicide 10
Tommy James 8



The options would be:

1. Induct just Suicide for winning 2 out of 3 categories
2. Induct both
3. Induct neither
4. Induct just Tommy James for having the most first place votes even though he has the most last place votes and was ranked higher on less ballots


It seems to me option #4 is the least logical of the choices given the circumstances.

Posted by classicrocker on Sunday, 10.14.12 @ 21:21pm

Maybe for just this one time, we should have eight inductees. That way, the supporters of Tommy James and the supporters of Suicide can peacefully co-exist. To induct neither is a stupid move; and to induct just one will be problematic. So, if possible, the Class of 2028 should have eight performers inductees.

Cannot think of another way to fix the issue,

Lax29

Posted by Lax29 on Sunday, 10.14.12 @ 22:09pm

I'm in total agreement, Lax. A class of eight is the fairest solution to both camps and would stand as a precident should we face this situation again.

Posted by DarinRG on Sunday, 10.14.12 @ 22:35pm

4. Induct just Tommy James for having the most first place votes even though he has the most last place votes and was ranked higher on less ballots


It seems to me option #4 is the least logical of the choices given the circumstances.

Posted by classicrocker on Sunday, 10.14.12 @ 21:21pm
---------------------------------

The least logical except for the fact that the rule ahead of time stated that the second tiebreaker would be the most first place votes. Therefore it is the most logical, since it was spelled out in black and white.

I don't really care if there are 8 inductees, but it is definitely not right to claim that Suicide somehow won that tiebreaker.

Posted by jtrichey on Sunday, 10.14.12 @ 22:57pm

A vote off would be kinda pointless, as I'm not dogmatic enough for TJ (or against Suicide, who I'm ambivalent towards) to watch that happen.

Just let em both in, it gets both snubs out of the way, makes our Hall a little more well-rounded (60s psychadelic group and Electronic protopunk, which would make sense if some are planning a push for LCD Soundsystem next year), and allows us to move onto bigger and better things. (I'm still pushing for 90s R&B and Garth Brooks, damnit! lol))

Posted by Jim on Monday, 10.15.12 @ 00:40am

I'm going to stick with my original procedure and rule that Tommy James and The Shondells gets inducted. I stated the rule before we officially knew we had a tie, so I think that it would only be fair to keep it that way. Just to clarify, I'm not gaining anything by making this decision as I actually had Suicide on my ballot and not Tommy James. I just think it would be fair to go forth with the rule I initially put in place.

If we want as a group, we can figure out a better tie in a tiebreaker situation for the next rounds so we don't have this problem again.

Posted by Gassman on Monday, 10.15.12 @ 03:12am

"The least logical except for the fact that the rule ahead of time stated that the second tiebreaker would be the most first place votes. Therefore it is the most logical, since it was spelled out in black and white." -jtrichey

If you wire up a building, then throw a lightswitch and you see the lights flicker do you go "Duhhh, the wiring was already in place before I turned on the lights so this is how it will stay even though the existing wiring is obviously defective. Maybe I'll fix it next week or next year and if the building burns down before then, oh well."

When something is found to be obviously defective or inadequate, you don't ignore the problem. You fix it, not tomorrow or next month. Pronto.


Gassman- Nobody here opposed inducting both Tommy James and Suicide. I don't see how doing that would have screwed over anybody. The rule could have been amended going forward, and everybody would have been satisfied.

Posted by classicrocker on Monday, 10.15.12 @ 12:01pm

Personally, I don't think it is defective to have the tiebreaker be the most first place votes. To me, that is at least a reasonable tiebreaker. Since it was stated ahead of time, I don't think it is a problem. No building on fire here IMO.

Posted by jtrichey on Monday, 10.15.12 @ 16:16pm

Gassman's project, Gassman's rule. I do think it's the least logical and I'd argue against Suicide if it were the other way around, even. However, that was what we had before we began the tiebreaker and we can change it next year. I'm sure Suicide will be a lock now for our next induction year (they've become our Dave Clark Five, arguably getting more votes than one of the other inductees, but succumbing to a rule that was already set in place).

What makes this all the more ironic though (as a Suicide supporter) is that I support the case of Pantera more than I do Tommy James & The Shondells. I strategically put Pantera last because I figured they'd get more points than Tommy James & The Shondells. I was right, but it backfired greatly.

Posted by Casper on Monday, 10.15.12 @ 16:18pm

There's nothing wrong with a rule to decide based on whom received the most 1st place votes as long as whoever has the most first place votes doesn't also have the most last place votes. If that's the case then the tiebreaker should be who was ahead on the most ballots. And if that's also a tie, then I don't see a problem saying the winner is whoever had the most first place votes. If everything is a tie then induct all involved.


"Nah, I had changed my mind about there being a voting update. Plus, this isn't my project. I didn't create it and it's all of ours. I was just hearing people out and voicing my own opinion......"

Posted by Casper on Sunday, 10.7.12 @ 22:00pm


So whose project is it? Gassman's or "all of ours?" If it's the latter then shouldn't the issue be put to a vote like others have been in the past?

If you programmed a GPS device to map out a trip you were taking and soon after pulling out of your driveway you discovered a flaw in the program that would take you from the main road and off a pier to the bottom of the ocean, would you continue on your way and not change course because the trip was already planned out that way by the defective device before you started out? All I can say is if you're that obstinate then be sure to pack an oxygen tank, a pair of goggles and some flippers cause you're gonna need em when your car flies off the pier and becomes a boat.

Bon Voyage!

Posted by classicrocker on Monday, 10.15.12 @ 20:55pm

Seems a bit overdramatic though doesn't it? Tommy James getting in and Suicide not is a building on fire or driving off a pier?

Look, if a round of voting generates a tie, it does not make logical sense to base a tiebreaker off of anything from that same voting. The artist on more first place ballots by definition will lose out on points somewhere else, or the artists would never be tied. However, using first place votes makes as much or more sense than anything else in that fashion. Who cares who had the most last place votes? We aren't voting someone off the island, we are voting someone in.

Finally though, again, a tiebreaker within a tiebreaker is not going to make sense no matter what you do. If we cannot induct 8 for whatever reason, then the rule was in place and nobody said anything about it before hand.

Posted by jtrichey on Monday, 10.15.12 @ 21:23pm

I'm sorry that I made such a big fuss, but it's the rule I had in place before we knew the results and the one thing I won't budge on is having 7 inductees. It has been a point of emphases that I've had from the beginning and I think it's important that we keep that the same. We should just move on a figure out set of rules so we don't have to deal with the issue in the future.

Posted by Gassman on Monday, 10.15.12 @ 21:38pm

I just found out something interesting. The median is the exact middle value in a set of numbers. In other words, half the data is higher and half the data is lower than the median. It turns out that when the median is calculated for the tiebreaker rankings that Suicide has a higher median than Tommy James.

Here's the ranking data rearranged in numerical order....

Suicide:

1,1,1,2,2,2,2,2,3,3,3,3,3,3,3,3,4,4

Median = 3


Tommy James:

1,1,1,1,1,2,2,2,2,2,2,4,4,4,4,4,4,4

Median = 2


So now out of 4 different perspectives:

# first place votes
# last place votes
# ballots with higher ranking
median


Suicide wins 3 out of 4.

Still wanna just induct Tommy James?? Or should we induct both given the above circumstances?


I vote both, do I hear a second??

Posted by classicrocker on Monday, 10.15.12 @ 21:47pm

I second classicrocker's idea to induct both Tommy James and Suicide. Now, if we have to only induct seven performers, I will go for Tommy James on the basis of he getting more first place votes. By concurrence, I will assuredly have Suicide on my 2029 ballot. Yet, inducting eight performers should not mean we have scrwed up the Revisited/Projected Rock Hall Project. Indeed, in our Revisited Class of 1989, we inducted eight sidemen. So there is precedence in this matter. None the less, the 2028 inductees should be on the top of this page as soon as possible. That way, we can move on into re-ranking the Rock Rankings. This has gone on far enough.

So too has this post:),

Lax29

Posted by Lax29 on Monday, 10.15.12 @ 22:02pm

Thank you Lax29. The Cleveland Hall has inducted as many as 15 and as few as 5 in a year, so I don't understand why our number couldn't be higher than 7 in some exceptional circumstances like we have today. What's the travesty?

Posted by classicrocker on Monday, 10.15.12 @ 22:25pm

The decision has already been made, there will be no vote, we're moving on.

Posted by Gassman on Monday, 10.15.12 @ 22:30pm

I don't see any argument for changing the rules when you don't like the results. The second tiebreaker was in place before voting began and we were reminded of what it was during the tiebreaker voting. Whether or not you think the rule is fair or makes sense, you don't change the rules to engineer the result that you want. If you want to change the rules, you have to figure out the details before you know what's at stake.

So, if it's all said and done, what do we want to do about tiebreakers in future years? I say we stop using the rank all the tiebreaker candidates method and just go to a straight tiebreaker vote. If there are 4 artists eligible for 2 spots, everyone gets 2 votes. If there's still a tie after that, do another tiebreaker. If there's still a tie to resolve after 3 (or 5 or whatever we decide is the stalemate number), flip a coin and make the loser a voting priority next year for everyone who's interested.

I've observed dozens of tiebreakers in these projects over the years and I think the current method is flawed for a couple reasons:

1. This method not only allows voters to reward their favorites, it allows them to punish their least favorites.

2. This method forces you to give points to artists you might not support at all. Granted, it's only one or two points, but it still counts.

3. With public voting, posted results and known deadlines, people can craft their tiebreaker vote strategically to make sure that they engineer the results they want if the results are close. This might not have been the same ballot they would have cast if they voted blindly.

4. Most importantly, this method celebrates mediocrity over excellence. In the case of large tiebreakers, the top artists are rarely the artist that gets the most first place votes because those artists also tend to get a lot of last place votes from voters want their preferred artist to be voted in instead. The artists that tend to win tiebreakers are the artists that finish in the middle of everyone's ballots. Do we want our tiebreakers to be won by the artists the most voters are most passionate about (one way or the other) or the mushy middle that no one loves all that much but no one hates that much either?

We're not going backward on this issue, but I think going forward in future years we need to consider adopting a straight-forward tiebreaker voting system. One vacancy, one vote, two vacancies, two votes.

Posted by Darren on Monday, 10.15.12 @ 23:14pm

Also, to address jtrichey's previous concerns regarding front-runner bias, maybe we want to have nominations to make a set ballot before everyone starts voting.

It won't prevent the first voters from having their artists spotlighted first, but it will allow everyone to know what their choices are.

If you knew that everyone was selecting from the same list of 40 artists rather than the hundreds of artists that haven't been inducted yet, it might discourage you from jumping on the first artists that you like because they're the front-runners and you assume that anyone who isn't on the board yet didn't have a chance.

Posted by Darren on Monday, 10.15.12 @ 23:21pm

For future tiebreakers I am fine with Darren's idea. I don't have real strong feelings on the matter. There will almost certainly be ties again after that process, so there will need to be one more step figured out. I am actually OK with leaving it as-is honestly.

As to the second issue I do have strong feelings. I have been participating in just about everything for a year now, but this is my first time participating in the BIG project around here, the projected Rock hall. I have to say the method drives me absolutely bonkers. This and the album project inductions, IMO, just don't work like they should with no nomination process. I'm not sure if certain posters have a monopoly of influence by proclaiming who they will vote for and then getting their ballot out ASAP, but I suspect that it is the case.

The Cleveland rock hall uses a nominee phase, why don't we? The nominee phase also works well in the song project and the blind ballot. To be clear though, I am not necessarily in favor of a blind ballot with the Hall Projected.

Posted by jtrichey on Monday, 10.15.12 @ 23:57pm

To clarify, I don't think we should have a blind ballot for this project.

Posted by Darren on Tuesday, 10.16.12 @ 00:06am

Gassman,

Unless FRL has made you an administrator or a moderator, then anyone can hold a vote if you want to.

No one needs you to budge on anything.

Posted by DC on Tuesday, 10.16.12 @ 00:15am

I meant, if *they want to.

Posted by DC on Tuesday, 10.16.12 @ 00:18am

"I don't see any argument for changing the rules when you don't like the results. The second tiebreaker was in place before voting began and we were reminded of what it was during the tiebreaker voting. Whether or not you think the rule is fair or makes sense, you don't change the rules to engineer the result that you want."

It is patently obvious to anyone with an 8th grade education that Suicide prevailed in the tiebreaker. I repeat, nobody was arguing that Tommy James should be left out because the existing rule was flawed. Thus nobody who voted for Suicide is trying to "engineer" the results the way they want because Tommy James WOULDN'T be excluded. They'd BOTH be inducted. Why do you guys keep acting like somebody is going to be screwed here?

In the real world if you see a problem with something that's happening, you don't ignore the problem. You fix it. Fixing the flawed rule would not screw anybody. If you change a rule after the fact and somebody is adversely affected then, yes, that's not acceptable. But in this case changing the rule after the fact doesn't negatively affect anybody; and it can be argued it rectifies an unfair outcome as far as Suicide is concerned because it was demonstrated that they deserved to win based on several real world observations on the ground.

"...you have to figure out the details before you know what's at stake."

No you don't. If your tires are leaking, you pull off the road and fix the problem before you drive off a bridge. Only a deluded infant would continue to proceed under such adverse circumstances.


So cutting to the chase, you have 2 options.

1. Keep in place a rule that has proven to be flawed which adversely affects 1 of the involved parties.

2. Recognize the existing rule is problematic and change it NOW, like a mature adult so that the party that stands to lose because of the original flawed rule is not being screwed while at the same time allowing the first party to keep what was given them as a result of the old stupid rule so they aren't hung out to dry.


Now I ask you, which choice would be the most reasonable? It seems to me only an egotistical maniac on some kind of power play who doesn't want to admit their rule was flawed would choose option #1.

Anybody interested in fairness and upholding objective reality would chose option #2. Why the bloody hell would you choose the first option? Choose the option that does the most good.

Posted by classicrocker on Tuesday, 10.16.12 @ 01:13am

classicrocker, do you have some sort of vendetta against Tommy James and the Shondells? Or are you that big of a supporter of Suicide? Cause you're being really insistent about this. Pretty much everyone else, even people who were supporters of Suicide in the tiebreaker (DarinRG, Casper) have said that while it would be cool for both to be inducted, that at this point its water under the bridge, and that's what next year is for.

The tie-breaker rule is just fine, no matter how many analogies you use to try and discredit it. The tires not leaking, the buildings not on fire, the act you supported just lost a tiebreaker, that's all.

Honestly, just induct them both, it ends the argument and opens things up for a clean slate of 7 next year, rather than 6 + Suicide.

Posted by Jim on Tuesday, 10.16.12 @ 01:25am

The whole point of this project was to have consistency year-after-year unlike the other institution...it will mortify me to have eight inductees. Just let Suicide wait another year to have their name on a web page from which they'll receive nothing.

Posted by Casper on Tuesday, 10.16.12 @ 02:39am

Hell, can't we even have a rule under these circumstances that an act simply is inducted the next year if they end up tied after the tiebreaker? We can just list Suicide now under 2029 or consider them a lock next year and just have a six name ballot. There's nothing wrong with that and it will save everyone the arguing and time wasted.

Posted by Casper on Tuesday, 10.16.12 @ 02:41am

Hey gents!

I saw all the arguing going on over here, & it really got me. I feel kind of sad, as I forgot to include a ballot this yr. Who knows, maybe I could've helped out in some small way.

I will say this: for a project that's supposed to have some level of fun, you guys seem to be taking this Way too seriously...

That statement is open for anyone to read, & take as needed - especially w/a nice deep breath or two ;)


Meanwhile, I'd like to re-post this, from Sunday afternoon:


A few days ago, the subject of what to do after the Album Rankings came up. Obviously, I had a feeling that someone would bring up the idea of re-ranking the Performers, at it was already mentioned some ways back.

At the same time, I seized on something that was mentioned over a year ago, and took it on myself to do a little inquiring. Over a yr. ago, an idea was floated around that we might attempt our own record reviews of the albums we've inducted into our Album Project. It drew some interest, but everyone seemed to want the immediate payoff of Artist Rankings. I quietly put it aside myself, but never forgot about it.

Initially I was under the impression that we'd only be able to handle one thing at a time here, but the site in general has been juggling multiple projects quite easily. Hence, I wish to bring this up again. I am not discounting myself from the new Ranking project, as my interest has grown quite considerably in the past yr. However, I also feel we could easily do that, And try a few album reviews as well.

I already broached the idea w/the Site Admin., & he says that in order to do it, we would simply have to write reviews right on the artist pages. He noted how the proposed Induction speeches did not necessarily go off well, & he has made no promise that something might be formed out of this. However, he did say if we wrote album reviews directly on the Artist pages themselves, he would see if he could whip something up (a section, I presume).

I wish to enquire as to how many of you would be interested in adding this in addition to an artist re-ranking? It only takes a little bit to re-rank the artists, & I figured this might be a nice addition to what we already have going here. Give it a thought, and let me know.

Thanks. :)

Posted by Cheesecrop on Tuesday, 10.16.12 @ 05:05am

I was out yesterday. I say Tommy James & Shondells in & Suicide waits until next year.

Posted by Paul in KY on Tuesday, 10.16.12 @ 09:22am

All "controversy" aside, I like this class. It's fairly well-rounded and I don't think any of the inducted artists are a stretch.

If I'm allowed to look ahead to next year, my ballot will likely be fairly similar consisting of:

2 alternative/more influential than popular artists
1 90's rock artist
1 RRHOF artist that we haven't inducted
1 metal band
1 R&B/rap artist
1 swing vote
1 classic rock artist

From the 3 artists on my ballot from last year that weren't inducted, I will probably only vote for Bauhaus again. The support for No Doubt and The Offspring seems to have dried up, and there doesn't seem to be much desire from the voting body to hit the snubs of the 90's yet. Fair enough.

With regards to the rest of my expected support, I am currently leaning toward:

Alt Band #2 - Suicide (it's only fair), Gang of Four, The Fall, Fugazi, The Sonics, Throbbing Gristle

Metal - System of a Down, Ozzy Osbourne, Anthrax, Korn, Dream Theater

R&B/Rap - Kanye West, A Tribe Called Quest, Nas, De La Soul, Salt N Pepa, The Commodores, Kool & the Gang, Mary J. Blige, Mariah Carey, Beyonce

RRHOF - The Dells, The Moonglows

90's Rock - No Doubt, The Offspring, Dave Matthews Band, PJ Harvey, Tori Amos, Sublime, Alanis Morissette, Jeff Buckley

Classic Rock - The Guess Who, Boston, Foreigner, Styx, Pat Benatar, Huey Lewis & the News

This isn't set in stone, and I'm open to suggestions. I agree as Cheesecrop says that this project should be fun, so let's just move beyond this and start thinking about the next class :).

Posted by BSLO on Tuesday, 10.16.12 @ 15:12pm

Oops, ignore the "1 swing vote" line. Meant to delete that.

Posted by BSLO on Tuesday, 10.16.12 @ 15:13pm

I'll probably lean toward voting for an industrial act, a metal act, electro act, a country rock act, classic rock act, rap/r&b act, & a newly eligible.

For industrial- Suicide, Throbbing Gristle, Skinny Puppy, KMFDM, White Zombie

Metal- Ozzy, Anthrax, System of a Down, Dream Theater, Anvil

electro- The Chemical Brothers, Moby, Aphex Twin, Stereolab, Fatboy Slim, LCD Soundsystem

Country rock/folk- Poco, Lucinda Williams, Gillian Welch, Steve Earle, Ryan Adams

Classic Rock- Montrose, Rainbow, Styx, Pat Benatar, Iron Butterfly

Rap/R&B- De La Soul, A Tribe Called Quest, Mariah Carey, Mary J. Blige, Toni Braxton, Teena Marie

Newly Eligible- Kayne West, Animal Collective, Arcade Fire, TV on the Radio

Posted by Greg F on Tuesday, 10.16.12 @ 15:45pm

Next year's ballot is quite a bit away, however my immediate preferences are going to be for the artists I voted for this round who didn't make it in (namely Bauhaus, Suicide, Neu! and the Spencer Davis Group). Not quite sure if I'll give a vote to all four, but we will see (Suicide is the only one I'm 100% sure on, the events of this round coming to mind). Other artists I have my eye on that immediately come to mind are Steve Earle, the Tokens and the Pogues all of which narrowly missed receiving a vote from me this round.


Some other names on my radar right now:

The 13th Floor Elevators, Gary Numan, Madness, Cliff Richard and the Shadows, Throbbing Gristle, Neutral Milk Hotel, Blue Oyster Cult, the Crystals, Einsturzende Neubauten, Sigur Ros, the Sonics, Midnight Oil, Billy Bragg, the Misfits, Petula Clark, the Stranglers, Tindersticks, Poco, UFO, Uriah Heep, the Birthday Party, the Verve, the Move, Slade, the Dells, Manfred Mann, Cabaret Voltaire, Rory Gallagher, the Moonglows, Joe South, Johnny Rivers, the Monks, the Turtles, Wishbone Ash, the Shangri-Las, Paul Revere and the Raiders, Them, the Troggs, the Flatlanders, Chris Rea, Jack Scott, Alabama, Johnny Winter, the Flamin' Groovies, Moby Grape, the Vogues, Desmond Dekker and the Aces, the Penguins, Serge Gainsbourg and Buddy Knox and His Rhythm Orchids (not in that order), and probably a few others I'm forgetting.

And I'll be pushing for Lonnie Donegan as an Influence. I don't currently have plans to vote for Non-Performers since I'm pretty much out of N-Ps I care enough about. Sidemen, we will see.

Posted by Tahvo Parvianen on Tuesday, 10.16.12 @ 16:15pm

Oh yeah, I knew I forgot something:

For Performers add this year's newly eligible, the Black Keys and next year's newly eligible, Arcade Fire.

Fritz Pfleumer should be getting my Non-Performer vote, so ignore that bit about me not voting for Non-Performers next round.

Posted by Tahvo Parvianen on Tuesday, 10.16.12 @ 16:23pm

For non-performers I'm considering: Richard Barret, Neil Bogart, Richard Perry, Van Dyke Parks

For Influence: Amos Milburn, Johnnie Ray,

For sidmen: Tommy Bolin, The Dixie Flyers, Cornell Dupree, Bob Babbitt

Posted by Greg F on Tuesday, 10.16.12 @ 17:24pm

My ballot next year bill be pretty heavy on newly eligible artists. Kanye West and Arcade Fire are locks for my ballot. With Animal Collective, Beyonce and TV on the Radio as possibilities. I'll probably give another vote to LCD Soundsystem and might consider The Black Keys from this year.

To locks for the remaining spots will go to Suicide and Dave Matthews Band. The rest of the ballot will be filled by the fallowing: System of a Down, A Tribe Called Quest, Boston, Korn, De La Soul, No Doubt, Lou Reed, Ozzy Osbourne, Elliot Smith, Modest Mouse, Nas or Mariah Carey.

Posted by Gassman on Tuesday, 10.16.12 @ 18:00pm

I wasn't really around yesterday either, but the reason I didn't really put up a fight is because I'm the one who asked during the tiebreaker what would happen if we had another tie. I was given a definitive answer by Gassman then and I didn't raise any objections at the time (nor did anyone else that I recall), so I think I'd look like a real asshole if I did so now. Because of that I have no quarrel with the final decision.

That said, I think that classicrocker and Casper have more than adequately illustrated why we need to amend the tie in a tie-breaker rule going forward. (Highest placement on more ballots or inclusive induction seem the fairest to me.)

Most importantly, I just checked my iPod and all nine of my Suicide albums are still there. Life is still good.

Posted by DarinRG on Tuesday, 10.16.12 @ 18:08pm

Next year Suicide, Neu! and Bauhaus are my definite locks. The Chemical Brothers, Bad Brains, the Black Keys, Siouxsie & the Banshees and Lou Reed are also on my radar off the top of my head. I'm supportive of LCD Soundsystem, but there's no way that I personally could vote for them ahead of Suicide, so I'll have to see how that goes.

Posted by DarinRG on Tuesday, 10.16.12 @ 18:15pm

I'm not being compensated to be here. Neither is anyone else as far as I know. So the fun factor is obviously what keeps us coming back. Sometimes the competition can become a little too intense and the fun aspect of it can turn into a distant memory like a fight in a hockey game. But no one should take anything said too personally. The rules I think should be kept at a minimum, and stridency should be avoided. Saying the hell with the rules and inducting both of them would have been more fun to me; but everybody's definition of fun varies, apparently.

Congratulations to Tommy James and Suicide.

It's over.

Hey everybody, we're all going to get laid.....

Posted by classicrocker on Tuesday, 10.16.12 @ 22:07pm

Congrats to Tommy James and the Shondells. Suicide seems to have good support for next year.

Next year, please please please consider a Punk act - Bad Brains, Minor Threat, Misfits, the Sonics. All hugely influential in their own right. With them going in, I'd be more inclined to vote for a late act, such as the Offspring. I hate to sound annoying about this topic, but I just don't want them to get forgotten is all.

We'll see. We always come out with a great induction class, so I'm not really worried. I also want to take the time out and say thank you to you all. A lot of these bands and artists I would not have known about before coming to this site, and many have grown to be some of my favorites. You've all been incredibly helpful in broadening my musical taste.

Posted by Steve Z on Tuesday, 10.16.12 @ 23:52pm

Kanye and Arcade Fire will most likely be locks on my ballot for next year.

I'll be pushing for one rap act, either A Tribe Called Quest, Nas or Salt n Pepa strike me as next in line.

I will also be likely voting for Neu!

Also, is anyone willing to vote for the Shangri-Las?

Posted by rockstar23 on Wednesday, 10.17.12 @ 01:36am

Kanye and Arcade Fire will most likely be locks on my ballot for next year.

I'll be pushing for one rap act, either A Tribe Called Quest, Nas or Salt n Pepa strike me as next in line.

I will also be likely voting for Neu!

Also, is anyone willing to vote for the Shangri-Las?

Posted by rockstar23 on Wednesday, 10.17.12 @ 01:36am

"Also, is anyone willing to vote for the Shangri-Las?"

I might be. I can't say for sure yet, but I'll definitely be considering them.

Posted by Tahvo Parvianen on Wednesday, 10.17.12 @ 03:16am