Arrowsmith, I missed your comments, but thankfully it appears that you were just a typical hit-and-run poster. I can't resist the opportunity to tear your post apart though.

"Anecdotal case in point about Ochs and 60’s culture and history, I have some Ochs CDs in my collection and my niece who is a senior in high school pulled out a couple a few weeks ago and said, “We listened to this guy in psychology class last year.” blah blah blah..."

You should know that isolated anecdotes like yours do not strengthen Ochs's case for the Hall. In case you aren't aware, anecdotal evidence is too weak to support an argument and is based more on isolated cases rather than common trends that can be proven. Too bad the students had to suffer through the droning whine of Ochs.

"You could be right. It's also true that Ochs's stature as a 1960's cultural icon continues to grow. Consider it a form of historical revisionism if you will, but the fact remains that he wrote songs that were both relevant to his time and place but also eerily prescient. blah blah blah"

If you consider a barely-seen documentary and a proposed film that hasn't even reached the production stage evidence of his stature increasing in prominence, then I think you need to reevaluate your priorities. Among 1960s artists, Ochs is a blip in the radar. He did not fuse together disparate styles to create new genres, nor he bring any new twists to already-established genres. Folk music is a rather limited style to begin with, and history shows that the only folkies from the 1960s who have survived are Bob Dylan and The Byrds. Most of the people who have covered Ochs are fellow folkies, most of whom are as equally obscure and unimportant.

Ochs has never been a heavyweight of '60s music, and he does not even belong in the same universe as the likes of The Beatles, Dylan, Ray Charles, Aretha Franklin, Smokey Robinson and the Miracles, The Doors, The Ventures, Marvin Gaye, The Beach Boys, Dick Dale and the Del-Tones, The Velvet Underground, Pink Floyd, The Jimi Hendrix Experience, The Byrds, James Brown and the Famous Flames, The Yardbirds, Otis Redding, and others who were more significant in the 1960s and still remain important figures. Ochs belongs with fellow stale '60s folkies like Peter, Paul, & Mary, Joan Baez, and The New Christy Minstrels, as well as others '60s schlock figures like Engelbert Humperdinck, Bobby Vinton, The Archies, and The 1910 Fruitgum Company. Ochs just happened to latch on to a fad that was big in the late '60s, namely Vietnam War protest songs, but as soon as the war ended, he and his ilk became immediately irrelevant. They had nothing else to offer to music and that is why they are only found in the LP collections at places like The Salvation Army and Goodwill, where all shlock music goes to die*.

"I don't think Phil Ochs is going to fade away any time soon and if he doesn't I can see him being inducted on his own merit sometime in the next decade."

Too late, he faded away almost 40 years ago and is merely a footnote in the pantheon of music figures from the 1960s, and music in general

*Although The Salvation Army and Goodwill do sometimes receive LPs by good artists to sell, the vast majority of what they stock are outdated traditional pop/cocktail singers (i.e., Johnny Mathis, Andy Williams, Harry Belafonte, Al Martino), folk (i.e., The Kingston Trio, PP&M, Ochs, Baez, etc.), easy listening/instrumental pop (i.e., Mantovani, Arthur Fiedler/Boston Pops, Guy Lombardo, Ray Conniff), singer-songwriter pablum (i.e., John Denver, James Taylor, Carly Simon, Harry Chapin, etc.), wimpy soft rock (i.e., Linda Ronstadt, Air Supply, Christopher Cross, Seals & Crofts, etc.), and all sorts of other dreck (i.e., Michael Bolton, Yanni, Mitch Miller, Jim Nabors, Roger Whittaker, etc.)

Posted by Zach on Thursday, 08/8/2013 @ 22:46pm

Neil Young did a beautiful rendition of Phil Ochs's "Changes" at Farm Aid 2013 a couple of weeks ago and in his intro told Phil's story, calling him one of the greatest songwriters and poets to have ever lived.

Ochs does not belong in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame for a couple of different reasons (one being that he was not really a rock artist and another being that he's hardly a household name) but Young is right. He is one of history's greatest songwriters and those who dismiss him because they think he only belonged to one time and place or because he never cracked the Top 40 or because they don't think they like his political viewpoints are missing out on some truly amazing stuff.

Posted by Caroline on Sunday, 10/27/2013 @ 20:13pm

You Phil Ochs fans are still at it? Jeeze, and I thought astrodog had it tough with the Linda Ronstadt cult. It's amazing how the artists with the least historical significance and musical impact attract the most rabid defenders around here (Ochs, Coven, Ronstadt, Simple Plan, Senses Fail, Insane Clown Posse, etc.)

Caroline, I'm not going to regurgitate my prior arguments why Phil Ochs doesn't belong in the Hall. You can scroll up this page and peruse them at your own leisure. However, I will dispute Neil Young's laughable claim of Ochs being "one of the greatest songwriters and poets to have ever lived." First off, Ochs wasn't a poet. Poets write poems to be read, not to be sung or accompanied by music. Calling Ochs a poet is an insult to real poets like Edgar Allan Poe, Robert Frost, T.S. Eliot and others.

As far as songwriters go, Ochs never wrote any songs that became cultural landmarks. Let's face it, this schmuck doesn't even belong in the same category as Irving Berlin, Chuck Berry, George M. Cohan, John Lennon & Paul McCartney (despite my dislike of them, they are objectively among the greats), Bob Dylan (ditto), Jerry Leiber & Mike Stoller, Willie Dixon, Duke Ellington, George & Ira Gershwin, Fats Waller, and Hank Williams. All of the above have written several songs that are well remembered, have been covered by numerous artists (many of whom are very significant), and stand the test of time. Ochs's songs have mostly been covered by obscure artists, fellow folkies (most of whom are as equally unimportant), and a few (no more than at least 3-4) important artists. Big whoop.

Lastly, I'm glad you agree that Ochs is not worthy of HOF enshrinement. The only Hall he belongs in is the Salvation Army/Goodwill Hall of Outdated Junk Music, along with Percy Faith, Peter Paul & Mary, Engelbert Humperdink, and others.

My tastes in music are excellent enough. Why waste my time with an untalented folkie like Ochs when I got real legends in my playlist like Charlie Parker, Bill Monroe, Louis Jordan, David Bowie, and The Cure?

Posted by Zach on Monday, 10/28/2013 @ 14:04pm

Songwriting, poetry...Nothing alike!

Posted by Paul in KY on Tuesday, 10/29/2013 @ 07:26am

Paul, I see you've switched your game from making assumptions to attributing words to others that were never spoken in the first place. Please point out where I said that songwriting and poetry share nothing in common. I know you can't do it, because you've dug yourself such a deep hole that no rope is long enough to reach you.

While there are similarities between the two forms, poetry and songwriting are two distinct things. Have you ever tried reading lyrics as opposed to singing them? I have, and even the words of my favorite songwriters don't come off as effectively if they are merely read aloud and not sung or accompanied by music. Then again, I'm of the school of thought that music is more important than lyrics, so it's really not an issue I feel compelled to lecture on for pages and pages. There are specific songwriters who I admire, but musicianship rules the roost for me (Singing ability comes a very close second in my criteria for enjoying music).

Posted by Zach on Wednesday, 10/30/2013 @ 17:13pm

Phil Ochs deserves to be in the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame. Next to Bob Dylan, he wrote some of the greatest protest songs of the early rock era. He also played in the concert protesting the 1968 Democratic Convention in Chicago and helped found the "Yipee" party!

Posted by Bob L on Monday, 09/29/2014 @ 17:39pm

"Though fashions changed and critics sneered
The songs that I have sung
Are just as true tonight as then
The struggle carries on
The struggle carries on"

When the song of freedom rings out loud
From valleys and from hills
Where people stand up for their rights
Phil Ochs is with us still
Phil Ochs inspires us still

Posted by Marley on Monday, 11/24/2014 @ 22:56pm

I just want to denounce Zach's comments as completely insane bullshit, and to ignore anything he has said so far. A "music snob" with seemingly awful taste in music and whose arguments make no sense should anybody bother to research his claims.

I know it was a while ago, but I find it appalling to see this douchebag talking about how much more important the music is than the lyrics, and then use this rationale to denounce the man who released "Pleasures of the Harbor" and "Tape from California", records that he has obviously not heard.

Posted by Derek on Thursday, 01/15/2015 @ 02:21am

Derek, his comments 'make sense' if you look at him as an Ayn Rand loving crackpot who only dislikes lyrics with a social meaning when they proffer a different future than a boot in the face of humanity forever.

Posted by Paul in KY on Thursday, 01/15/2015 @ 07:20am

They will induct him the way they inducted Laura Nyro, and sadly, before Joan Baez.

Posted by Roy on Thursday, 01/15/2015 @ 12:22pm

Paul, it must be fun to believe that your delusional fantasies have any basis in reality. I've never read a single paragraph or sentence penned by Ayn Rand. I have no interest in her work anyway (Haven't I told you enough times I hate liberals and conservatives equally?). I'd rather read Edgar Allan Poe, Robert Frost, or Ernest Hemingway. You have no evidence to support your "Ayn Rand-loving crackpot" statement." The burden of proof lies on your shoulders. Unfortunately, you have none, so all you have to depend on are baseless statements and paranoid theories. Seriously, let it go.

Derek, for you to claim that my taste in music is awful is hysterical. How exactly is preferring jazz or blues awful taste in music? I wouldn't exactly call Louis Jordan and Little Walter (two favorites of mine) bad musicians. They're both monumental figures in music and certainly influenced more important names, achieved more success, and fostered more innovations and creativity than your precious Phil Ochs. Let's face it, folk isn't known for the kind of progressive elements that permeate jazz or other complex genres. I view music primarily through an art for art's sake POV. I just want competent musicianship. Lyrics are collateral unless they're interpreted with absolute conviction (i.e., Billie Holiday's performance of Strange Fruit, one of the very, very few songs with a message that I enjoy).

BTW, I have listened to excerpts from Pleasures of the Harbor and Tape from California. Outside of A Small Circle of Friends is such a hokey-sounding song, with that absurd piano backing that sounds so inappropriate and Ochs' nasally whining. Ochs was a musical dilettante who merely wanted to cross over to the pop crowd, hence his attempts as "experimentive albums". He doesn't strike me as the type who would be adventurous enough to collaborate with someone like Ahmad Jamal or Link Wray or cover a Django Reinhardt or Professor Longhair composition.

Hope this is the last time I ever have to check in on the Phil Ochs. Amazing how some people just can't let go of old grudges.

Posted by Zach on Tuesday, 01/20/2015 @ 13:35pm

EDIT-Hope this is the last time I ever have to check in on the Phil Ochs page.

BTW Derek, take a long walk off a short pier.

Posted by Zach on Tuesday, 01/20/2015 @ 13:38pm

I was wondering when you were going to check in, Zach.

Wouldn't you have to concede that some of your previous comments, preserved for the ages, might lead some to think you have it in for songs/composers who try to promote progressive ideals through song?

I haven't ever heard you denounce the Horst Wessel Lied, for example.

Posted by Paul in KY on Tuesday, 01/20/2015 @ 15:17pm

Well, Paul, I'll have you know that I detest the Nazi ideology, so that song you cited would never find a home in my iTunes library or CD collection. Ditto for all that atrocious skinhead rock which is every bit as distasteful and damaging to the ears as pseudo-anarchist bands like Rage Against the Machine (while being signed to Sony). If you were trying to imply that I'm an anti-Semite, then you failed.

I consider Toby Keith's Angry American one of the worst songs ever written. Being proud of your country is fine as long as it doesn't degenerate into race-baiting like Keith does. He's pond scum.

This earlier comment from BSLO summarizes my feelings on politics in music succinctly.

"I think that Zach just doesn't like music with any political overtone period (left or right)."

Posted by Zach on Tuesday, 01/20/2015 @ 15:30pm

For the record, Paul, I hate music that tries to promote any type of social message, although I do enjoy Billie Holiday's Strange Fruit, but that's a very rare exception that proves the rule. We already have the news to disseminate information about current events. There's absolutely nothing you can learn from a song about social inequalities that you can't already find in an op-ed, history textbook, or documentary. Musicians should be more concerned with perfecting their technical abilities and playing complex solos or instrumentals. Music only evolves when new methods of playing instruments, chord progressions, and overall sounds are cultivated and expanded. Consulting the news for topics to write songs about doesn't signify any kind of progression in music. That's regression.

Posted by Zach on Tuesday, 01/20/2015 @ 17:38pm

Hi, Zach, nice to hear from you.

I personally enjoy songs that have a political message tired to them and that is one of the biggest problems I have with today's music is a lack of political awareness. Now with that said, I will admit that some political songs tend to be a little preachy and what the artist is singing about one can also read in a history book or watch in a documentary as you said.

I didn't know you liked Hemingway's books. I personally have never read any on his work, but I wouldn't mind reading some of his stuff. Do you have any recommendations when it comes to Hemingway or Edgar Allen Poe for me?

Posted by Andrew on Tuesday, 01/20/2015 @ 18:22pm

One more thing, Zach, why do you hate songs with a political message?

Posted by Andrew on Tuesday, 01/20/2015 @ 18:27pm

Zach, we'll have to agree to disagree on messages thru music & how they can positively affect society, but I must thank you for fleshing out your thoughts on 'message music'. Have a more nuanced view of you now.

I didn't ever think you would like the odious Horst Wessel song, was just using it as a canard.

Posted by Paul in KY on Wednesday, 01/21/2015 @ 07:21am

Andrew, I'd rather not reiterate my reasons for disliking message music as it's a topic that's created much strife as you can tell. Feel free to scroll up this page and review some of my previous comments. I have rigid ideas about what I enjoy in music and sociopolitical proselytizing is not something I seek in music. Just as I wouldn't expect my mailman or pizza delivery driver to lecture me on racism or war, I don't want musicians or singers to cover topics that are better left to the news. I apply this to other media like films, literature, and video games. I just want to use my imagination and enjoy myself.

These days I prefer listening mainly to instrumentally-based music (Three recent favorites of mine include Django Reinhardt, John Philip Sousa and Scott Joplin), although I still derive pleasure from most of the artists I've championed before.

Posted by Zach on Wednesday, 01/21/2015 @ 12:31pm

Zach, I understand now and I'll try not to open this topic again with you. I didn't know you liked Hemingway's books. I personally have never read any on his work, but I wouldn't mind reading some of his stuff. Do you have any recommendations when it comes to Hemingway or Edgar Allen Poe for me?

Long live 50s rock n' roll!

Posted by Andrew on Wednesday, 01/21/2015 @ 21:09pm

Andrew, I'd start with A Farewell to Arms for Hemingway (He wrote both short stories and novels, so whichever you prefer to start with is entirely your prerogative). It's a poignant narrative that blends romance and war (It's set during WWI, BTW). I got into his work in college and have always found his literature to be quite enjoyable. He was fabulous at setting up and describing scenes. The Old Man and the Sea is another good place to start, especially if you enjoy maritime themes.

I've loved Poe since elementary school. Since you asked for recommendations, I have to start with the two short stories that has stuck with me through all these years: The Cask of Amontillado and The Tell-Tale Heart. Both are grim tales of murders as related by the culprits themselves. Poe was fantastic at writing stories of the macabre, especially those that dealt with madness. There are tons of anthologies containing his poems and short stories on the market, so feel free to acquire one (preferably one that is fairly comprehensive) and enjoy!

There's also some outstanding films that have adapted Poe's works or least taken inspiration from them, if you're interested. I've seen all the Roger Corman-directed movies from the 1960s. It's been a while since I've seen some of them, but in order of preference, here's how I'd rank them:

1. The Pit and the Pendulum (1961)
2. The Masque of the Red Death (1964)
3. House of Usher (1960)
4. Tales of Terror (1962 - The Black Cat segment is actually a reworking of The Cask of Amontillado and is easily the best of the three in this movie)
5. The Raven (1963)
6. The Tomb of Ligeia (1964)
7. The Premature Burial (1962)

I don't count The Haunted Palace (1963) since that's actually an adaptation of an H.P. Lovecraft novella, The Case of Charles Dexter Ward.

To tie this all back in to music, here's a quote from Edgar Allan Poe's essay The Poetic Principle regarding the goal of poetry that I feel applies to music and other arts just as well:

We have taken it into our heads that to write a poem simply for the poem’s sake, and to acknowledge such to have been our design, would be to confess ourselves radically wanting in the true poetic dignity and force: — but the simple fact is, that, would we but permit ourselves to look into our own souls, we should immediately there discover that under the sun there neither exists nor can exist any work more thoroughly dignified — more supremely noble than this very poem — this poem per se — this poem which is a poem and nothing more, this poem written solely for the poem’s sake.

Posted by Zach on Wednesday, 01/28/2015 @ 21:26pm

Have always enjoyed Mr. Lovecraft's tales.

Posted by Paul in KY on Thursday, 01/29/2015 @ 07:17am

Zach I'm currently near the end of the "I Ain't Marching Anymore" album and holy hell I apologize for everything I've ever said to you.

Posted by GEffYew on Friday, 01/30/2015 @ 15:46pm

Dude you are pathetic. You've been checking on this page and commenting for YEARS and all you've really managed to get across is that you don't like music with a social or political message (i.e. music that actually means something). That is really all anyone needs to read to realize that you're a moron, and that no amount of jazz or blues will cover up the fact that you are laughably narrow-minded and not to be taken seriously on the topic of music.

Unless you are just trolling. In which case, great job! Jimmies successfully rustled.

Posted by Derek on Saturday, 01/31/2015 @ 00:14am

Derek, first of all, not everyone likes songs that have a political or social message and in Zach's case, he finds songs like that to be preachy and boring. So saying that Zach is narrow-minded is just wrong and the stuff he listens to doses not mean he is a moron. Everyone has different opinions when it comes to music and what they want to hear from that kind of music. Zach isn't into political songs and that's just fine. Also, I personally enjoy songs that have a political message tired to them and that is one of the biggest problems I have with today's music is a lack of political awareness, but I do find some political songs to be preachy or boring at times like "Fortunate Son", a song that I consider to be the most overrated anti-war song out there.

Lastly, learn to appreciate other's tastes rather then impose your own or call someone narrow minded, Derek.

Posted by Andrew on Saturday, 01/31/2015 @ 16:11pm

I don't know what astounds me more-the fact that this thread is still limping along after nearly 3 years or that nearly 3 years has gone by since I last posted here. Where has the time gone? I'll tell you what. This site gives Phil Ochs a 10% chance of induction. If I was in Vegas I might just buy a few options above what the house was offering- say 15 to 20%. But regardless, Zach, promise me if you happen to be driving and an announcement comes over the radio that Phil Ochs has been nominated for the Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame that you will immediately pull over and shut down your engine. We have enough road rage out there as it is!

Posted by Arrow Man on Saturday, 01/31/2015 @ 17:27pm

Back again, I see, Dork (err, I mean, Derek)? My intention was not to troll this page. If that were the case, I simply would have just posted "Phil Ochs sucks!" However, I prefer to go beyond just one-line opinions and actually provide reasoning for why I like or dislike a particular artist.

Besides the unnecessary politics, Ochs's music irritates me because of his droning voice and appalling lack of musicianship. Let's face it, the guy wasn't a Django Reinhardt or Les Paul on the guitar, which is par for the course with folkies. That Ochs broke with tradition for the two albums you cited isn't all that impressive when you consider Bob Dylan already achieved the same thing but with more success and influence. He also demonstrated his inability to make interesting covers of others' material with his Buddy Holly and Elvis Presley medleys on the Carnegie Hall album (A concert that thankfully flopped. :)) He could have thrown in some interesting changes, but instead merely aped the originals as closely as possible, thus sounding more like a cover band or impersonator.

It has never been a requirement for music to mean anything in order to be great or transcendent. The world is divided enough as it is, we don't need songwriters to jump on the bandwagon. Politically-oriented songs age badly, much like milk. The protest and counter-protest songs of the 1960s (most overrated decade for music) mean nothing to subsequent generations as the issues and landscape change constantly. I don't exactly see a Phil Ochs or Country Joe and the Fish resurgence happening anytime soon. They're odd footnotes that may occasionally arouse discussion, but nothing more. The music of the '60s that has stood the test of time is generally apolitical, such as The Beatles, Aretha Franklin, John Coltrane, The Temptations, Booker and the MG's, and Dave Brubeck.

All music needs to do is to provide pleasure to the listener. I am a strict proponent of the art for art's sake school of thought. This is why I eschew politically-based music and prefer instrumentally-based music. I don't profess to understand how to read music, but I know what sounds complex and interesting to my ears. Chord progressions, solos, technical ability, virtuosity, and the interplay among band members are all qualities I favor. Certain genres just breed more innovation and experimentation, which is why jazz has become my preferred genre these days. Whether it's ragtime, Dixieland, swing, bop, cool, Latin, or any of the other styles, I can always find something in jazz to challenge my listening and provide the ultimate form of musical excitement. I don't like all jazz, but I respect anyone who's ever picked up a trumpet, saxophone, or what-have-you and played something good.

Although I mostly avoid insults, your lack of decorum has given me no choice but to describe you with the term of endearment I used at the beginning of this post. You honestly haven't posted anything intelligent or stimulating, so just stop now.

BTW, Arrow Man, I currently don't drive due to financial and personal matters, so I won't take your advice under consderation. I'd also recommend that you keep your options as low as possible because a musical nonentity isn't worth the gamble. I pay little attention to the Hall because of their recent embarrassments. Whether Ochs ever gets inducted or not, I won't care all that much because I know his real place in history.

Posted by Zach on Sunday, 02/1/2015 @ 13:25pm

John Wesley Harding wrote a song titled Phil Ochs, Bob Dylan, Steve Goodman, David Blue & Me. Although not listed in the title, John Prine is also mentioned in the lyrics.

Posted by Zuzu on Thursday, 02/19/2015 @ 16:04pm

There are at least 30 - 40 tribute songs/songs about Phil from artists across genres and decades including

"The Parade's Still Passing By" Harry Chapin
"Phil" Tom Paxton
"I Dreamed I Saw Phil Ochs Last Night" Billy Bragg
"Phil Ochs" Josh Joplin Group
"Thin Wild Mercury" (about Dylan and Phil) Todd Snider
"The Day" They Might Be Giants
"Patrot's Game" Arlo Guthrie

Certainly Phil Ochs never was and never will be for everyone. But he seems to have a profound impact on those who do know his music. I don't think there are too many casual fans out there. It's hardcore or nothin.

John Lennon was also impressed with Phil. Enough to have swiped his "War is Over" concept.

Will he ever be inducted? Maybe. Does it matter? His music is always going to matter, whether some folks like that thought or not.

Posted by NowhereWoman on Monday, 03/9/2015 @ 23:46pm

And none of them are significant/important to the development of music as an overall art form.

John Lennon's importance is as a Beatle, not as a solo artist. Even then, you can't exactly say his overall sound owes anything to Phil Ochs. Remember, it's music (instruments/production), not lyrical content, that drives the evolution of music.

You're dead wrong about his music still mattering. The Vietnam War ended 40 years ago there's no more draft, etc. Times change, and so do the issues that resonate. His music is deservedly obscure and his songs are ancient history to those not alive during his time. Timeless music is Beethoven, Scott Joplin, George Gershwin, Louis Armstrong, Muddy Waters, Frank Sinatra, Elvis Presley, The Beatles, Michael Jackson, etc. Go read the news or a history book if you want truth. Let music just be music.

Give it up, Phil Ochs fans. Go join the Coven, Steve Perry, Insane Clown Posse, and other fanboys who've tried to prop minor acts as being the alpha and omega of music.

Posted by Zach on Tuesday, 03/10/2015 @ 11:53am

Neil Young has been covering Phil Ochs in concerts for the last couple of years.

He calls him one of the greatest poets and songwriters in all of history. All. Of. History.

Lets see, some troll named Zach who has probably never listened to more than a song or two of Ochs' vs. Neil Young. If it all comes down to personal opinion, I know which I'm giving more weight to.

If anyone needs to give it up, Zach, it's you. If you want to critique someone's music, you need to at least listen to it first.

Posted by Jay C. on Friday, 03/13/2015 @ 21:32pm

I'm seriously beginning to wonder if most, if not all, of these Ochs fans popping out of the woodwork are actually just the same person (or handful of people) creating multiple usernames to make it seem like there's more of a Phil Ochs fanbase than actually exists.

I'll grant you that Neil Young is fairly significant, although he's still nowhere as important as his most sycophantic followers make him out to be. Still doesn't refute the fact that Ochs hasn't influenced that many important names. Don't just think in terms of songwriting, think of actual performance, production, musicianship, and similar qualities.

Here, let me help you. Here's ten objectively important musical acts from the past 40 years. Now I want to you document whether Ochs had any influence on them musically (not lyrically, that doesn't count):

Kraftwerk
Prince
David Bowie
Roxy Music
Judas Priest
Radiohead
The Police
Depeche Mode
Madonna
Stevie Ray Vaughan

I doubt you can do it, but I love messing with you Ochs fanboys.

I've already addressed Neil's incredibly myopic praise of Ochs being "a great poet" (I imagine Edgar Allan Poe, Robert Frost, W.H. Auden, and dozens of others all rolled in their graves when that statement was declared). As far as Ochs being a great songwriter, that's a real gutbuster. Last time I checked, great songwriters are responsible for creating songs that transcend all barriers and are world-renowned: think Irving Berlin, John Lennon & Paul McCartney, Richard Rodgers, George M. Cohan, Jerry Leiber & Mike Stoller, Jerome Kern, Cole Porter, Duke Ellington, Chuck Berry, Hank Williams, Willie Dixon, Thelonious Monk, Holland-Dozier-Holland, etc. Great songwriters write with timelessness and universality in mind, not attempting to cash in on current events. Ochs doesn't deserve to be ranked among these names as he used music as a mere bully pulpit for his politics. He wrote with only the then-present in in mind, which accounts for why his music has dated so badly. Richard Nixon's no longer President (thankfully), the Vietnam War and draft are over (ditto), etc. There's no reason to revisit hokey protest songs when the events they describe have already passed and can be more accurately ascertained from history books/documentaries. We don't need music to learn about current events when we already have the proper channels of information to use.

And yes, I have listened to some of Ochs's putrid music: Tape from California and Pleasures of the Harbor (His so-called "ambitious" projects) only serve to reveal his musical limitations in that he had to depend on others to make his music sound semi-professional. His extremely limited vocal range and amateurish guitar playing are unforgivably awful. What he did to Edgar Allan Poe's The Bells is a crime that the master of macabre poetry would have been mortified to hear had he been alive in the 1960s. If you actually took the time to read my earlier posts, you'd see my critiques of some of Ochs's singles. Let's face it, this honky wasn't exactly jamming at Minton's Playhouse with Thelonious Monk and Dizzy Gillespie or swapping guitar solos with Les Paul and Jeff Beck.

I'll cut you rabid sycophants a deal: If I cease my criticisms of Ochs (which so far have all been on the money), you'll stop replying to me. Capiche? Feel free to enjoy him warts and all, but just be realistic about his actual impact on music and understand that your numbers are not growing all that much.

Posted by Zach on Saturday, 03/14/2015 @ 00:34am

Why would he want to be in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame? His music certainly transcends most of the junk put out by people who call themselves "rockers," and he wasn't really one in the first place.

Much like Laura Nyro, who had to be dead like 17 years to get in, he and his music are above it all.

Posted by MiserableOldFart on Monday, 08/3/2015 @ 00:17am

Well, with a username like MiserableOldFart, you've saved me the work of having to describe your taste in music.

Last time I checked, music that transcends all barriers is something like Beethoven, Duke Ellington, George Gershwin, Scott Joplin the Beatles, or Michael Jackson, not topical songwriters who are long outdated. Ochs is deservedly obscure and I will see to it that he remains that way.

Acquire a better taste in music. Let me help you:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_40V2lcxM7k

Posted by Zach on Thursday, 08/20/2015 @ 12:59pm

He'll be inducted.

Posted by Roy on Monday, 04/25/2016 @ 22:13pm

Yes, Roy. He will be inducted.

Posted by David on Friday, 07/1/2016 @ 23:06pm

I don't know, David. At risk of giving Zach a woody, e's been eligible for a long time & I've never heard him mentioned as a potential nominee.

He was mentioned in relation to that Coen Brother's movie, I think.

If Zach hates him/her, I have an inclination to like them. Have listened to his music, really liked some song about California. He could be an Early Influence, but for a straight induction, there's a long line ahead of him, IMO.

Posted by Paul in KY on Sunday, 07/3/2016 @ 10:21am

So much for that attempt at a truce you tried to make with me, Paul. Aren't you a middle-aged man? If so, why invest so much time into trying to goad me when you could go out and enjoy the real world and find some hobbies. You apparently still have some bizarre fascination with me, otherwise you wouldn't have invoked my name.

The fact you like Phil is an indication of where your taste lies (Hint: It ain't anything special). I've forgotten more about music than you could possibly ever know (My iPod covers well over a century of music. How many Jelly Roll Morton, Scott Joplin, and John Philip Sousa compilations/songs/albums do you have?), and unlike you, I actually enjoy music FOR music. Ochs was not an occomplished or even average musician, thus his work holds no interest for me (That, and he deserves to wallow in obscurity). Lyrics are fine, but they're not a necessity for music. It's much like movies; you can have dialogue, but as a visual art form, the images should be the foremost tool of disseminating a story. If I want profound words, I will read literature (I'm a Poe and Hemingway kind of guy).

BTW, Phil is not EI material as he does not predate the birth of rock and roll. Qualified candidates for that category include Wynonie Harris, Django Reinhardt, Sister Rosetta Tharpe, and Roy Brown (I'd be shocked if you even knew any of these names, considering your lack of actual knowledge).

Posted by Zach on Saturday, 07/16/2016 @ 20:45pm

BTW, the only reason I bothered replying to your post was that I wanted to revisit FRL after a long absence and see what kinds of conversations were being conducted and I decided to look up some old posts of mine along the way.

I'll cut you a deal. Don't reply to anything I type and I won't respond to anything you post. Sound fair? I said everything I needed to say about my favorite whipping boy here, and see no reason for us to continue this spat. Have a good life. I'm already doing that myself.

Posted by Zach on Saturday, 07/16/2016 @ 20:59pm

Lady Gaga sang a relatively obscure Ochs song at a concert for delegates to the DNC.

Despite his own best efforts, Phil Ochs refuses to die.

Posted by A Girl is No One on Saturday, 07/30/2016 @ 10:44am

Which song?

Posted by Roy on Saturday, 07/30/2016 @ 15:21pm

Whoop-de-doo! A political convention isn't exactly the Oscars, the Tonys, or the Grammy in terms of prestigious or notable venues for performing music. Besides, covering someone else's song does not inherently translate to being influenced by that individual. Nothing about Lady Gaga, musically or stylistically, can be traced back to that nasally, untalented cracker. I hate her anyway for shameless pilfering David Bowie, Grace Jones, Jobriath, Queen, Madonna and others without adding any unique or different variations.

You Ochs fans live in a fantasy world, right next to flat earthers, Holocaust deniers, and other kooks with no perception of reality or facts. The facts remain on my side, that Ochs is NOT an innovative artist or someone who influenced scores of important artists musically (Don't bring up lyrical influence, because that is not the same as playing music), and that he is a deservedly obscure figure. The dirty '60s, Vietnam War, Nixon, hippies, etc., are ancient history, so quit living in the past.

Posted by Zach on Saturday, 07/30/2016 @ 15:50pm

Dude, Zach, I have exactly zero horses in this race, as I have never heard a Phil Ochs song, but there is absolutely no call for you to resort to racial epithets, nor personal attacks. It's just a folk artist we're talking about. Liking folk music is nowhere near the same level or plateau as being a Holocaust denier or a flat-earther. Think about that before you accuse others of having "no perception of reality." Might get a little of that iron out of your knee.

Posted by Philip on Saturday, 07/30/2016 @ 21:00pm

Reading comprehension, Philip. I was comparing Ochs fan boys (and girls), not folk music fans in general, to Holocaust deniers and flat earthers on the basis that they have bizarre, completely unfounded beliefs. No serious musicologist or historian would anoint Ochs as one of the towering musical figures of the 20th century, as these Ochs-bots appear to do. He was and remains an obscure figure who had no hits, contributed no musical innovations or reinventions, and has primarily influenced equally obscure and unimportant acts. To say that any of his songs are still relevant is a complete fallacy given how much the issues change and even those that do still exist have different parameters from a half century or 20-30 years ago.

The "cracker" remark was in jest, as I love poking fun as music that is very white (that is, devoid of any rhythm, soul, creativity, spontaneity, excitement, energy, or passion) and bland, and Ochs (along with folk in general) fits that to a tee.

Posted by Zach on Sunday, 07/31/2016 @ 12:01pm

And don't forget the people who think the earth is only 6000 to 10,000 years old.

Posted by Roy on Sunday, 07/31/2016 @ 13:39pm

Yeah, but you react similarly to pretty much any folk artist. Not as strongly, but similar.

And in the midst of the rant, the humor can get lost.

Again, no horses, but it's still no justification for putting them on the same level as those people.

Posted by Philip on Sunday, 07/31/2016 @ 22:47pm

Well, those who make folk music are a repellent lot in my view. I hold no ill will toward those who enjoy listening to the genre. You are correct, though, that I loathe folk more than any other music genre (I can name at least a half dozen rap/hip-hop acts I enjoy; folk doesn't even have much credit going for it). I find it bland, too simplistic, and very boring. I demand excitement, creativity, rhythm, soul, improvisation, competent musicianship (It doesn't have to be Django Reinhardt-level; it just needs to at least sound like there's some effort being made, instead of mindless strumming), and strong vocals in my music. I find none of these aspects in the execrable works of The Kingston Trio, Phil Ochs, Pete Seeger, Woody Guthrie, and other whitebread, buttermilk-complexion goofs. That said, MOR/psuedo-jazz singers (Tony Bennett, Andy Williams, Perry Como, Frankie Laine, Pat Boone, Harry Belafonte, Al Martino, Barbra Streisand, Bobby Vinton, Guy Mitchell, Linda Ronstadt, all being notable offenders), the '70s singer-songwriter trend, nu-metal, easy listening/pseudo-jazz instrumental fluff (Percy Faith, Ray Conniff, Mantovani), gangsta rap, and hardcore punk all make my blood boil nearly as much as folk. Now, if you really want to see a vitriol-ridden rant from me, ask me about Neil Young sometime. ;)

I don't know how familiar you are with film critics (I am a fairly huge movie buff, which has been one of my passions in life), but this comparison might explain my hatred for Phil Ochs in a broader context. Film/theater critic John Simon harbored (who knows, he probably still does at the ripe old age of 91) a harsh grudge against Barbra Streisand and her film roles in her '60s/'70s heyday. His attacks were merciless and caustic, much like my missives against Ochs (One of the reasons he earned my wrath was for his paint-by-numbers, glorified cover band-level medley of Buddy Holly songs at the sham of a Carnegie Hall show he performed). Here are some choice excerpts (courtesy of movie-film-review.com's Harsh Reviews section) that I find rather amusing and well-written:

Hello, Dolly! (1969)
A full-face closeup of Miss Streisand is a truly terrifying experience: as the camera moves in tighter and tighter, you know how Edmund Hillary must have felt, and there is no Tenzing Norkay to catch you if you slip, or just reel backward in horror. As for the star's acting, Machiavelli observed in a letter: “I think that just as nature has given everyone a different face, so she has given to all a different intelligence and imagination, and each acts according to this personality.” Miss Streisand, perhaps because she lacks intelligence and imagination, is obliged to act according to her face — aggressively, smugly, and with a masturbatory delight in herself.

What’s Up, Doc? (1972)
Miss Streisand looks like a cross between an aardvark and an albino rat surmounted by a platinum-coated horse bun. Though she has good eyes and a nice complexion, the rest of her is a veritable anthology of disaster areas. Her speaking voice seems to have graduated with top honors from the Brooklyn Conservatory of Yentaism, and her acting consists entirely of fishily thrusting out her lips, sounding like a cabbie bellyaching at break- neck speed, and throwing her weight around. Even her singing has become mannerism-infested, and a brief attempt at a Bogart impersonation may be the film's involuntary comic high spot. Miss Streisand is to our histrionic aesthetics what the Vietnam war is to our politics.

A Star is Born (1976)
Oh, for the gift of Rostand's Cyrano to evoke the vastness of that nose alone as it cleaves the giant screen from east to west, bisects it from north to south. It zigzags across our horizon like a bolt of fleshy lightning; it towers like a ziggurat made of meat. The hair is now something like the wig of the fop in a Restoration comedy; the speaking voice continues to sound like Rice Krispies if they could talk. And Streisand's notion of acting is to bulldoze her way from one end of a line to the other without regard for anyone or anything; you can literally feel her impatience for the other performer to stop taIking so she can take over again. If dialogue there is, it is that between a steamroller and the asphalt beneath it. And then I realize with a gasp that this Barbra Streisand is in fact beloved above all other female stars by our moviegoing audiences; that this hypertrophic ego and bloated countenance are things people shell out money for as for no other actress; that this progressively more belligerent caterwauling can sell anything — concerts, records, movies. And I feel as if our entire society were ready to flush itself down in something even worse than a collective death wish—a collective will to live in ugliness and self-debasement.

Posted by Zach on Saturday, 08/6/2016 @ 01:03am

I don't know what Zach was on. But due to his hatred of folk music in general, that sorta makes his opinion on if a folk artist should be included invalid. But I agree Phil deserves to be considered. He most likely will never get it, considering the other acts the hall refuses to add. But his lyrics are simply incredible, and amongst the highest caliber in all of music. Not to mention is stunning arrangements in his A&M era albums.

Posted by Sean on Tuesday, 11/23/2021 @ 20:09pm

Interesting thread started 10 years ago about Ochs, a major influence for my songwriting. I am 70, and became a fan upon the release of Pleasures of the Harbour, because of the amazing variety of orchestrations (due likely to Van Dyke Parks). Especially the wild sounds used for The Crucifixion, which many consider his greatest song. The poetry was classic (old style) but clear. Loved the clarity of it. I really don't care if he is inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, because his influence was beyond music, and it is not, IMHO, Rock n Roll. Ochs never cared for conventional accolades….better he stAys out.

Posted by Buddha’s Brother on Monday, 10/10/2022 @ 19:04pm

This Zach guy seems that he hates folk music which is fine but why go after this thread ? I'm 19 and enjoy Phil ochs Peter Seeger Tom Paxton Utah Phillips John Denver the Beatles ccr Aurora Sigrid Leon the eagles elo and more. I enjoy music every day and Phil has inspired me to become a folk singer say what you will about his obscure nature and songs but his songs are still relevant today with the likes of cops of the world here's to the state of Mississippi power and the glory and more and it's always cool to look into the past and to the remember the days of old. Without Phil or folk singers most of these events or people would be forgotten and seems like Zach wants Phil to be forgotten he will probably never be in the hall of fame but more need to know about Phil and is music and it seems like folk music is being forgotten I hope some day to bring it back. And I gotta say Phil did have talent someone said he kept bringing more songs each session he had like 60 songs too choose from before all the news that's fit sing. Will Phil ochs ever be in the rock n roll hall of fame probably not but Pete and woody are in there and that's fine by me.

Posted by Reed on Friday, 04/14/2023 @ 14:42pm